Plugged In Tone vs. "Everything" Else

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Since both guitar have their plugged in tone based on Baggs element.

Why can't you just use the Anderson with Tonedexter Colling's wavemap?

In this video, James does it with a Yamaha silent guitar and it works.


PS: You can send me a pm if you want to further discuss this idea.

Cuki

Cuki,
This is an interesting idea? I did like what the ToneDexter did to the Silent Guitar at the end. That was pretty cool!

The downside of this approach for me is that first I would have to buy a ToneDexter, then I'd probably have to buy a mic to train it. Then I'd have to fool with the training process only to find out if any of those wavemaps work for the Crowdster.

Part of the appeal of the Crowdster is the simplicity. If I have to start adding things like a ToneDexter to the Crowdster in order for me to be happier with it live, I've lost some of the simplicity that makes it appealing.

MrErikJ,
Thank you for sharing those clips. It was neat to hear how the guitar changed with each one. I think you are right, that a non-guitar playing audience member would not know the difference and even a guitar playing audience member would not have the benefit of hearing all three of those examples one right after another.

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

And, how good do you need to sound to make your audience happy? You need to sound good but you need to play great.

Originally Posted by rokdog49

this^^^^
Getting a decent tone is sufficient for me. Nobody in any given audience gives a hoot and neither do I.

We've moved a little from my question of choosing superior plugged in tone vs. other positive attributes into "does the audience care?" Maybe that's a natural part of the discussion.

I know that when I am happy with my guitar tone, I play better. When I'm not happy it bothers me and interferes with the way I feel when I'm on stage. I can ignore something that is just a one time thing (bad monitor mix, etc.) but if I don't like the way a guitar sounds that will change the way I feel about playing it and that will continue to bug me.

I know for any given audience, many, many things go into making a performance "good." Acoustic guitar tone for most people might not even be on the list but I bet many things on the list have to do with attitude, vibe, excitement, energy, etc. of the performer. And if acoustic guitar tone contributes to enhancing those things for the performer, it will come across to the audience even though the audience members never gave a thought to the actual guitar.

Originally Posted by zhunter

How much of the "tone" you are getting from the Collings is actually the guitar's acoustic tone you hearing due to proximity? In my experience, amplification has to be pretty doggone loud before the direct acoustic sound is completely buried.

hunter

I'm sure I am hearing some of the acoustic qualities of the Collings. I KNOW I am feeling them. One thing I didn't mention in my original comparison is that I can't quite play the Crowdster the way I've always played my acoustic guitars. I have to use a lighter touch with a flat pick. I can't really dig in and thump away on it like I can on my Collings. So it's not only a sound thing, it's a feel thing too and I'm sure some of that has to do with hearing the body of the Collings while I play.

Matt

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

I'm sure I am hearing some of the acoustic qualities of the Collings. I KNOW I am feeling them. One thing I didn't mention in my original comparison is that I can't quite play the Crowdster the way I've always played my acoustic guitars. I have to use a lighter touch with a flat pick. I can't really dig in and thump away on it like I can on my Collings. So it's not only a sound thing, it's a feel thing too and I'm sure some of that has to do with hearing the body of the Collings while I play.

Matt

That is a big factor on your assessment of the Collings plugged in sound. Isolate yourself from that direct acoustic sound and see if there is really the plugged sonic superiority you are perceiving. I bet it is much closer than you think.

hunter

[martingitdave]

It's not a cerebral decision. It's an emotional and musical decision. Take the one that makes you feel like making your best music for the audience. Then, live with all the other compromises. BTW, I'm a fan of the DTAR Dual source, but I pair it with the K&K.

[Cuki79]

I don't know if I am hi-jacking the thread... But if one wants to find the comfort of an electric guitar without going to Taylor T5 or Godin territory.

Fender once sold the Acoustasonic Tele


Wich gives you Fishman Aura Image casting (same idea as showed by James' video) and a Bass Tele mic pickup.

Note that it is an electric guitar (string, neck, body wise) with an acoustic pickup system.

By the way, Open-Road-Matt why did you sell your Amulet? I was very close to buy yours...

Cuki

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

It's not a cerebral decision. It's an emotional and musical decision. Take the one that makes you feel like making your best music for the audience. Then, live with all the other compromises. BTW, I'm a fan of the DTAR Dual source, but I pair it with the K&K.

You are sure right about it being more emotional and musical vs. cerebral.

I enjoy thinking about these kinds of things. I never should have been a musician! I should have pursued some scientific endeavor where there is actually some benefit to analyzing everything to death! But for some reason I picked up a guitar!

I probably didn't word my original post well. I do that a lot where I have some big idea and then don't explain it well. I meant this to be more about the decisions we all make to sacrifice "better" (really better or just our perception) for other considerations.

Not just one guitar vs. another guitar but with pedals, external mics, different amp/PA choices. How often do we (the collective we) opt for the best possible tone vs. ease of set up, less toting and hauling, etc. These two guitars just led to the question.

Cuki,
Another forum member just bought that Tele! At least I think that's the one. Hopefully he will see this and comment on it. From his last report, he's enjoying it.

Originally Posted by Cuki79

By the way, Open-Road-Matt why did you sell your Amulet? I was very close to buy yours...

Cuki

The amulet was nice but the more I played it, the more I realized that I just really like the string attack I get from an under saddle transducer. Specifically the "braided" cable one that makes up the Baggs Element. I had read so many good things about the D-Tar Multi Source that I just had to give it a try and I'm glad I did.

I don't think I would have minded keeping the Trance either. This is just a bit better suited to my playing style. Adding just a tiny bit of the mic on the Multisource really helps!

Originally Posted by zhunter

That is a big factor on your assessment of the Collings plugged in sound. Isolate yourself from that direct acoustic sound and see if there is really the plugged sonic superiority you are perceiving. I bet it is much closer than you think.

hunter

I have many questions for you about this! What made you suggest this? Do you have experience with the Crowdster? These are two very different guitars and I'm curious as to why you would speculate that they would sound similar plugged in if I could isolate myself from the acoustic sound.

The reason I have so many questions is that you're right!

I haven't played a thin bodied guitar for a really, really long time and I have never tried to directly compare one to a standard acoustic. I never bothered to think how much of the acoustic sound was influencing my opinion!

I have a little recording app on my iPhone. I set that up, left the room, put the cable under the door and shut the door. I then recorded each guitar while playing the exact same thing. I'm frankly shocked as to how similar they are!

This is good news and I much appreciate the suggestion to try that! Just when I think I know everything!

Matt

[troggg]

I'm rocking a Collings CJ35 dread with the world's simplest K&K Pure Western Mini. I think the plugged in tone is indeed a lot like the unplugged tone, though I don't feel like it sounds exceptional while I'm playing albeit the monitoring at the places I've appeared early in my live solo career is sorely lacking, so I can't tell for sure. But other players seem to think it sounds better than what they have, and they have some nice vintage and new guitars too with more expensive pickups. So even though the neck is a little wide for me I'm reluctant to change something that's working.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

Thank you for your thoughts! I happen to agree with you. I care and I think the audience cares. That's how I ended up with the Collings!

But just to play devil's advocate, does the audience really care? They don't know what I left at home guitar-wise nor do many of them know or care about acoustic guitar tone.

I was watching some clips of Ed Sheeran on Austin City Limits. He's just beating the heck of his tiny little Martin. It sounded exactly like someone pummeling a tiny little Martin with a Fishman under saddle transducer. But he was making some interesting loops and playing songs that the audience knew and they were into it!

Well my response to the question posed as the devils advocate is... there's maybe somebody in the audience that's gonna throw you your next high dollar gig because you do care about sounding better than the other guys that don't. I say this from experience. Ed Sheeran's tone is just how you describe, so people expect it. I'm sure you don't make your entire living from covering Ed Sheeran songs As for other singer songwriters who have crappy tone, I can name just as many that don't, and thank god for that! As in most things in life, go with your gut, it got you this far!

[rockabilly69]

As for the thought that nobody in the audience cares about your tone, most people that say this are playing in the wrong places. Do a showcase in a nice theater, or play in a high end acoustic room, and that thought goes out the window. And some of the ways to get to play in those rooms are, good songs, good vocals, interesting arrangements, and yes, great tone, otherwise there's a good chance you'll be stuck in the minors. Yes even really good musicians have to do gigs in sub-par environments, but when the chance comes to play in a good room to a good audience, a musician would be well ahead of the game if they used the bad gigs to work on the attributes that get the good gigs.

[doublescale1]

I dont have as much experience in fine tuning acoustic pickups to any given guitar. I just read a lot and go for what seems to be the shortest line to good "mic'd" tone that can be easily dialed in for any room. I just got a super clean 2014 martin 000-18 that had no pickup. I play a lot of open mic nights, with a second guitarist who is the vocalist. The kind of open mic's where you walk up there all tuned up, plug in and go. I had a Fishman Ellipse pickup installed in my new-to-me 000-18. To me, it's an above average solution to getting very, very good "mic'd" tone from an amplified acoustic guitar with it's combined undersaddle pickup and the Aura Mic/Guitar Image stored in the pickup that you blend into that undersaddle pickup (one of 4 different mic's you can download - there are hundreds of mic images paired with specific guitar brands & model sizes in the Aura library). It just works remarkably well, and simply dials in super fast. We just did an open mic night last Friday at one of the bigger mom-pop independent long-established music stores, monster PA w/great stage monitors. It's usually a room full of players. After our little two song set, I got a lot of very favorable input on how the 000-18 sounded compared to most all the others - no quack, no spank, no metallic artifacts, just honest wood guitar & steel strings. My acoustic partner uses an Anthem in his Bedell, that too is a very simple but great sounding, easy to use pickup. Good Hunting.

[Doug Young]

I'm not quite following what you want here, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding. A question and a suggestion :-)

My question is whether you have tried a preamp instead of straight into the board with either guitar? I know you're trying to keep it simple, but I've never had any luck plugging directly into any mixer, even ones that claim to have an instrument input. A DI and/or preamp always sounds much better. If you want to try a preamp, I'd certainly recommend giving ToneDexter a try. It's no more complicated for live use than any preamp, and can have a pretty big impact on the tone. Yes, you have to train it (that takes about 2 minutes) and yes, you need a mic (a pretty handy thing to have if you perform - or borrow one), but otherwise, it's pretty simple. If you at least use some DI/preamp, and I suspect you'll hear improved tone from both instruments.

And an observation/suggestion. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Crowdster has a Baggs Element in it. That's the same pickup as the DTar Multi-source, just without the mic. So that would seem to indicate that the Collings's better sound is either coming from the mic or the guitar itself. Probably both. It's hard to put "body" into a solid-body with a pickup (part of the appeal of something like the Crowdster would seem to be the lack of "body", so that you get a semi-acoustic sound without the feedback potential), but ToneDexter could help if you really want to add some body. You could also investigate the TC BodyRez (no training needed, and it does sound nice), or the Baggs Session DI. Three different approaches to improving a pickup sound and they all work pretty well, tho differently.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

As for the thought that nobody in the audience cares about your tone, most people that say this are playing in the wrong places. Do a showcase in a nice theater, or play in a high end acoustic room, and that thought goes out the window. And some of the ways to get to play in those rooms are, good songs, good vocals, interesting arrangements, and yes, great tone, otherwise there's a good chance you'll be stuck in the minors. Yes even really good musicians have to do gigs in sub-par environments, but when the chance comes to play in a good room to a good audience, a musician would be well ahead of the game if they used the bad gigs to work on the attributes that get the good gigs.

Ah yes, the sassy comment.

I did not say that good tone isn’t important or desirable. I didn’t imply we shouldn’t aspire to a great sound. I simply stated that, at some point, there’s diminishing returns in regard to the fidelity of pickup systems. Per the clips I shared, the improvements become more subtle when you reach performing levels of volume. I’m not saying the audience doesn’t care about the quality of the sound but that the differences between a Baggs Element and a Wavelength may be less distinct when playing in a noisy bar or a large concert hall.

We worry too much about the gear itself and we complicate our sound setup for minor returns.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm not quite following what you want here, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding. A question and a suggestion :-)

Hi Doug,
Thanks for weighing in. What I really wanted from this thread was to ponder the larger question of plugged in tone vs. other attributes. Do most people here at the AGF "always" opt for better tone or are there times we would sacrifice tone for some other quality?

That was the point of the thread. I used these two guitars as an example and we've gotten a bit off in the weeds as a result but that's ok. I think it's still a very worthwhile discussion.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

My question is whether you have tried a preamp instead of straight into the board with either guitar?

The "board" I'm using is the Bose T1 so not a conventional mixing board. I have tried just about every preamp made, including the ToneDexter. I always move on from them and come back to plugging straight into the T1. I've used it for years, I know it well and I feel pretty good about the tone I get from it. That's probably not going to stop me from trying other preamps down the road but if the past is any indication, I'll sell those too and be back to just the T1!

Originally Posted by Doug Young

And an observation/suggestion. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Crowdster has a Baggs Element in it. That's the same pickup as the DTar Multi-source, just without the mic. So that would seem to indicate that the Collings's better sound is either coming from the mic or the guitar itself. Probably both. It's hard to put "body" into a solid-body with a pickup (part of the appeal of something like the Crowdster would seem to be the lack of "body", so that you get a semi-acoustic sound without the feedback potential), but ToneDexter could help if you really want to add some body. You could also investigate the TC BodyRez (no training needed, and it does sound nice), or the Baggs Session DI. Three different approaches to improving a pickup sound and they all work pretty well, tho differently.

You are correct that the pickup in the Crowdster is the Baggs Element so yes, same under saddle transducer as the D-Tar Multisource. You are also correct about it being tough to add body to a solid body (or chambered guitar in this case.) With that said, I'm pleasantly surprised with the depth of tone that comes out of the Crowdster. It's a really nice sounding guitar. The Collings is just more of what I'm used to. It (the Collings) feels and sounds like a really nice version of what I've always played. The Crowdster feels and sounds different. Not bad! In fact, there are things I like better about the Crowdster.

As someone posted early on in the thread, I can't really go wrong with either of them. They are both great instruments. Again, it was more that the pondering of these two guitars led me to the larger question about opting for other attributes vs. plugged in tone.

I do really appreciate all the suggestions and I may choose to put something between the guitar and the T1 to see if that influences my decision.

Originally Posted by troggg

I'm rocking a Collings CJ35 dread with the world's simplest K&K Pure Western Mini. I think the plugged in tone is indeed a lot like the unplugged tone, though I don't feel like it sounds exceptional while I'm playing albeit the monitoring at the places I've appeared early in my live solo career is sorely lacking, so I can't tell for sure. But other players seem to think it sounds better than what they have, and they have some nice vintage and new guitars too with more expensive pickups. So even though the neck is a little wide for me I'm reluctant to change something that's working.

I think it's tough to go wrong with a Collings! And there is the say, if it ain't broke....

Originally Posted by doublescale1

I dont have as much experience in fine tuning acoustic pickups to any given guitar. I just read a lot and go for what seems to be the shortest line to good "mic'd" tone that can be easily dialed in for any room. I just got a super clean 2014 martin 000-18 that had no pickup. I play a lot of open mic nights, with a second guitarist who is the vocalist. The kind of open mic's where you walk up there all tuned up, plug in and go. I had a Fishman Ellipse pickup installed in my new-to-me 000-18. To me, it's an above average solution to getting very, very good "mic'd" tone from an amplified acoustic guitar with it's combined undersaddle pickup and the Aura Mic/Guitar Image stored in the pickup that you blend into that undersaddle pickup (one of 4 different mic's you can download - there are hundreds of mic images paired with specific guitar brands & model sizes in the Aura library). It just works remarkably well, and simply dials in super fast. We just did an open mic night last Friday at one of the bigger mom-pop independent long-established music stores, monster PA w/great stage monitors. It's usually a room full of players. After our little two song set, I got a lot of very favorable input on how the 000-18 sounded compared to most all the others - no quack, no spank, no metallic artifacts, just honest wood guitar & steel strings. My acoustic partner uses an Anthem in his Bedell, that too is a very simple but great sounding, easy to use pickup. Good Hunting.

It sounds like you've got something that works really well! The times when you have to plug and play are important. It would be a tad awkward to walk on stage and ask where you can plug in your rack of gear!

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

Well my response to the question posed as the devils advocate is... there's maybe somebody in the audience that's gonna throw you your next high dollar gig because you do care about sounding better than the other guys that don't. I say this from experience. Ed Sheeran's tone is just how you describe, so people expect it. I'm sure you don't make your entire living from covering Ed Sheeran songs As for other singer songwriters who have crappy tone, I can name just as many that don't, and thank god for that! As in most things in life, go with your gut, it got you this far!

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

Ah yes, the sassy comment.

I did not say that good tone isn’t important or desirable. I didn’t imply we shouldn’t aspire to a great sound. I simply stated that, at some point, there’s diminishing returns in regard to the fidelity of pickup systems. Per the clips I shared, the improvements become more subtle when you reach performing levels of volume. I’m not saying the audience doesn’t care about the quality of the sound but that the differences between a Baggs Element and a Wavelength may be less distinct when playing in a noisy bar or a large concert hall.

We worry too much about the gear itself and we complicate our sound setup for minor returns.

I agree with both of you! I agree that plugged in tone is important and I know that I have been guilty of WAY overcomplicating things for minor returns.

I think given all of the great gear available to us today, we can certainly sound good AND keep things fairly simple.

Thanks again for all the thoughts!
Matt

[ericcsong]

Matt,

I feel like I've known you for a pretty long time! From the good pendulum/goodall/dual source with sunrise days!

I think you love the true acoustic sound and will more than likely fall back to that because that is the most familiar.

The hard part is to get the familiar out of our minds to see whats best for the given application. Although the Collings might not be the better tone and especially the tone you are used to, it certainly seems to have its advantages. maybe you should try the Collings for a year or so to see if it becomes a different kind of familiar

[troggg]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

As for the thought that nobody in the audience cares about your tone, most people that say this are playing in the wrong places. Do a showcase in a nice theater, or play in a high end acoustic room, and that thought goes out the window. And some of the ways to get to play in those rooms are, good songs, good vocals, interesting arrangements, and yes, great tone, otherwise there's a good chance you'll be stuck in the minors. Yes even really good musicians have to do gigs in sub-par environments, but when the chance comes to play in a good room to a good audience, a musician would be well ahead of the game if they used the bad gigs to work on the attributes that get the good gigs.

Rings true for me.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by ericcsong

Matt,

I feel like I've known you for a pretty long time! From the good pendulum/goodall/dual source with sunrise days!

I think you love the true acoustic sound and will more than likely fall back to that because that is the most familiar.

The hard part is to get the familiar out of our minds to see whats best for the given application. Although the Collings might not be the better tone and especially the tone you are used to, it certainly seems to have its advantages. maybe you should try the Collings for a year or so to see if it becomes a different kind of familiar

Great to hear from you Eric! I hope all is well. I miss those days of getting together and fooling around with gear and guitars!

I think you are right about becoming familiar with something new and different. (I think you mean trying the Crowdster for a while and getting familiar with it, right?)

troggg,
Is your forum name at all related to a Todd Snider story?

Matt