Plugged In Tone vs. "Everything" Else

[open-road-matt]

Hi Friends,
I'm going through an interesting back and forth with a couple of guitars and I thought I'd share it here in case anyone else has, is or will ponder something similar.

About a month ago I bought a brand new Tom Anderson Crowdster. It took me a while to get used to this guitar and I've gone back and forth on keeping it several times. But after a month of playing it I've come to like many, many things about the Crowdster.

The other guitar I've been messing with is my Collings DS1A. A splendid guitar! Acoustically, I've not heard or played better! I just installed a new pickup in it, a D-Tar Multisource and I love it! It sounds AWESOME!

These are two very different instruments and I know it's a weird comparison to make but the fact is, I own both of them and when I leave the house to play music, I only bring one guitar. So it's a valid comparison for me.

The Crowdster: this thing is so comfortable to wear and to play. The action is perfect and the neck feels so good. I love having the volume and EQ knobs on the front of the guitar. It makes it really easy to make adjustments between songs and even on the fly. It can live in an electric guitar soft case making it very travel friendly.

In short, the Crowdster is a superior stage guitar to the Collings in every regard....but one: plugged in tone.

The Crowdster has a nice tone. Really nice for being so thin and small. Any complaints about the tone of the Crowsdster are not inherent to the Crowdster but in comparison to the Collings.

Again, I know it's maybe not a "fair" comparison but I'm making it anyway to determine what I want out of a stage guitar.

And it's not as if the Collings is a "bad" stage guitar in any way. I've played nice dreads live for years. The Collings just suffers in comparison to a dedicated stage guitar like the Crowdster. (Not in tone but in those other attributes I mentioned above.)

So there's my question to ponder: plugged in tone above all or a less natural acoustic tone but tons of great "stage guitar" features?

Other factors for consideration:

1) the trim level I use for the Crowdster matches my ukulele so I can plug either instrument into the same channel with no adjustments and no outboard gear.

2) as I mentioned, I only travel with one guitar. What if something happens to the pickup in the Crowdster? I carry an extra pickup in my spare parts bag that would get me through a gig with the Collings. Not sure it would work on the Crowdster. And if I was really desperate, I always have an SM57 in my bag. That for sure wouldn't help with the Crowdster.

3) I still have to buy an electric guitar bag for the Crowdster. Not a huge deal but something. I've been using my Mono M80 dread bag with the Collings so I'm all set there.

4) I am always solo. I'm never on loud stages and I never have any feedback trouble with acoustic guitars so those benefits of the Crowdster are probably not much of a consideration for me.

Just thinking out loud!
Matt

[DenverSteve]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

...In short, the Crowdster is a superior stage guitar to the Collings in every regard....but one: plugged in tone.

One - Then change the on-board electronics until you get the plugged in tone you want. Simple solution.

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

.. the trim level I use for the Crowdster matches my ukulele so I can plug either instrument into the same channel with no adjustments and no outboard gear.

Again, disregard.

[open-road-matt]

DenverSteve,
I appreciate the reply but I feel like maybe you didn't read my post.

Originally Posted by DenverSteve

One - Then change the on-board electronics until you get the plugged in tone you want. Simple solution.

This isn't an option. The guitars are the guitars and the pickups are the pickups. Are you familiar with a Crowdster? It is a thin-bodied chambered "acoustic" guitar. It comes stock with a pickup that has been specially tuned and set up for this guitar. I'm not about to go swapping out pickups chasing a tone I already have with a different guitar. This isn't about chasing after tone. It's about comparing two guitars.

Originally Posted by DenverSteve

This is no way to set your board. You need to reset your trim/gain for everything you are plugging in. That will be part of your lack-luster tone. Since you only use one guitar playing out, this also should be simple. Either readjust or use two different channels.

Again, with respect, I don't think you read what I wrote. I didn't write that I am setting up my board this way. I listed this as a benefit to using the Crowdster. The fact that I can swap instruments quickly and easily.

The way I have my board set up is not at all part of the equation. And I didn't mention lack-luster tone. Just to reiterate, I am comparing two very different guitars with different attributes and trying to decide which one best fits into my performing life.

The Crowdster does not suffer from "lack-luster" tone. It just isn't a Collings 12 fret long dread and never will be.

Maybe I'm interpreting your post incorrectly but I feel like I posed what I thought was an interesting thing to ponder and you jumped down my throat twice. Once telling me I should just swap out the pickup to make a thin bodied chambered guitar sound like a huge dread and again to tell me I don't know what I'm doing setting up my board!

Did I miss something?
Matt

[DenverSteve]

There was no throat jumping. Sorry you took it that way. Disregard.

[MrErikJ]

I think you should stick to whatever is most convenient for you. I've dabbled with dual sources and effects loops and yadda yadda and I keep coming back to a simple set-up: my dread with a Baggs LB6 and a Baggs Para Acoustic DI.

It doesn't sound as natural (but what does that really mean?) as a Trance or a complex dual source but it's 3 things that I like:

1. Feedback resistant: Between the LB6's design and the features of the PADI, I can fight and adjust any feedback issues

2. Powered & Simple: I don't need a bunch of cables or power supplies. No batteries in my guitar and phantom power driving my preamp reduces my risk of failure. The EQ & gain on the Para is more than adequate to amplify it and notch out bad piezo frequencies

3. It sounds Good: Again, this is relative, but no one has ever complained about my sound. Audience members tell me I sound good and guitarists are always impressed as well. It's not the same as mic'ing with a SM57 but it's very dependable and sounds like an acoustic, even if it's not perfect. I don't need the "best" I need "good" and "dependable."

I think if you prefer using the Collings, go for it. But if you genuinely prefer the Crowdster, stick with it. You won't lose with either but you should definitely select what's easiest for you.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

I think you should stick to whatever is most convenient for you. I've dabbled with dual sources and effects loops and yadda yadda and I keep coming back to a simple set-up: my dread with a Baggs LB6 and a Baggs Para Acoustic DI.

It doesn't sound as natural (but what does that really mean?) as a Trance or a complex dual source but it's 3 things that I like:

1. Feedback resistant: Between the LB6's design and the features of the PADI, I can fight and adjust any feedback issues

2. Powered & Simple: I don't need a bunch of cables or power supplies. No batteries in my guitar and phantom power driving my preamp reduces my risk of failure. The EQ & gain on the Para is more than adequate to amplify it and notch out bad piezo frequencies

3. It sounds Good: Again, this is relative, but no one has ever complained about my sound. Audience members tell me I sound good and guitarists are always impressed as well. It's not the same as mic'ing with a SM57 but it's very dependable and sounds like an acoustic, even if it's not perfect. I don't need the "best" I need "good" and "dependable."

I think if you prefer using the Collings, go for it. But if you genuinely prefer the Crowdster, stick with it. You won't lose with either but you should definitely select what's easiest for you.

Very good points!

I like your word "easiest."

I meant this too as a more of a general question with regard to playing live. It was just spurred by me pondering these two guitars.

Just like you mentioned with abandoning dual source, etc. for "simple."

I'm wondering in what other ways do we choose something else (size, ease of use, convenience, etc.) over "better" tone.

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

Audience members tell me I sound good and guitarists are always impressed as well.

This is really good too! We can sit at home and compare this to that but the audience doesn't ever have the opportunity to compare (unless we are switching back and forth live.) We just show up with something that works and that's that!

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

I don't need the "best" I need "good" and "dependable."

I also need to remember that I bought the Crowdster knowing it was not going to be a Collings. I bought it because I was hoping for dependable. (I just keep forgetting that when I go back to the Collings!)

Thanks again!
Matt

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

Hi Friends,
I'm going through an interesting back and forth with a couple of guitars and I thought I'd share it here in case anyone else has, is or will ponder something similar.

About a month ago I bought a brand new Tom Anderson Crowdster. It took me a while to get used to this guitar and I've gone back and forth on keeping it several times. But after a month of playing it I've come to like many, many things about the Crowdster.

The other guitar I've been messing with is my Collings DS1A. A splendid guitar! Acoustically, I've not heard or played better! I just installed a new pickup in it, a D-Tar Multisource and I love it! It sounds AWESOME!

These are two very different instruments and I know it's a weird comparison to make but the fact is, I own both of them and when I leave the house to play music, I only bring one guitar. So it's a valid comparison for me.

The Crowdster: this thing is so comfortable to wear and to play. The action is perfect and the neck feels so good. I love having the volume and EQ knobs on the front of the guitar. It makes it really easy to make adjustments between songs and even on the fly. It can live in an electric guitar soft case making it very travel friendly.

In short, the Crowdster is a superior stage guitar to the Collings in every regard....but one: plugged in tone.

The Crowdster has a nice tone. Really nice for being so thin and small. Any complaints about the tone of the Crowsdster are not inherent to the Crowdster but in comparison to the Collings.

Again, I know it's maybe not a "fair" comparison but I'm making it anyway to determine what I want out of a stage guitar.

And it's not as if the Collings is a "bad" stage guitar in any way. I've played nice dreads live for years. The Collings just suffers in comparison to a dedicated stage guitar like the Crowdster. (Not in tone but in those other attributes I mentioned above.)

So there's my question to ponder: plugged in tone above all or a less natural acoustic tone but tons of great "stage guitar" features?

Other factors for consideration:

1) the trim level I use for the Crowdster matches my ukulele so I can plug either instrument into the same channel with no adjustments and no outboard gear.

2) as I mentioned, I only travel with one guitar. What if something happens to the pickup in the Crowdster? I carry an extra pickup in my spare parts bag that would get me through a gig with the Collings. Not sure it would work on the Crowdster. And if I was really desperate, I always have an SM57 in my bag. That for sure wouldn't help with the Crowdster.

3) I still have to buy an electric guitar bag for the Crowdster. Not a huge deal but something. I've been using my Mono M80 dread bag with the Collings so I'm all set there.

4) I am always solo. I'm never on loud stages and I never have any feedback trouble with acoustic guitars so those benefits of the Crowdster are probably not much of a consideration for me.

Just thinking out loud!
Matt

Always choose the one with the best plugged in tone, you get paid to sound your best, and your reputation is based on your sound. The audience doesn't care which guitar is more convenient for you to use. If this is how you make your living you know this already!

[Silly Moustache]

Hi, I know of two people who have gone from real acoustics to guitars like the "Crowdster".

One of them bought a Taylor version, and travels to gigs by motorbike (!) so he can chuck a gig bag over his shoulder etc.

I recently went to see him looking forward to his Martin OM tone, and was very disappointed to hear the faux acoustic sound that his Taylor gave him - practical but not endearing.

The other is a friend who has serious arthritic problems with his hands and knows that he cannot get the sounds he wants from his Martins and Collings with electric gauge strings, so he uses something similar - a Godin perhaps.

I know the Collings DS series well, and own a 2003 Ds1a and a 2008 Ds1, they are acoustic perfection for me, and the Ds1a came to me with a K&K system installed, which I have used on rare occasions, although I prefer to work with a large condenser mic. for both guitar and vocals. (I don't do pub gigs any more).

Your new guitar is not an acoustic - it is an electric, and if the sound you get, plus the practicality suits you, then that's fine, but you know that it doesn't really sound like a real acoustic to discerning ears, especially as your Ds1a demonstrates (IMHO) the acme of great modern acoustic tonality, however when it is plugged in the real soud is always compromised.

But, only you and those few nerdy finger watching guys (like me) in the front row will ever know.

Long ago ('99) when I got my first Collings - a DS2h - I was having a Baggs Dual source system fitted, when the boss of the shop doing the work for me, ambled up to me and said "That guitar of yours ..... Yes? .... is about the finest steel string I've ever seen/heard. Whatever pick -up system we install for you - it will never reflect the subtleties of tone that you buy a piece like that for. If I were you, I'd not think of bugging it, I simply buy a Takamine for performance and keep the Collings at home.

I didn't follow his advice as I am not a pro and wanted a guitar that fitted my hands - i.e. not a 1 & 11/16" nutted strummer. I'm also very biased towards bluegrass playing style.

Six weeks later, someone pulled or tripped over my cable (still attached) and I saw my wondrous new guitar in pieces in front of the performing area.

I still play Collings wherever I go, but if I was gigging nightly and in some difficult or places or noisy audiences, I might go for something else .......I doubt it.

Whatever decision you come to it is your choice, and I wish you good fortune.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

Always choose the one with the best plugged in tone, you get paid to sound your best, and your reputation is based on your sound. The audience doesn't care which guitar is more convenient for you to use. If this is how you make your living you know this already!

Thank you for your thoughts! I happen to agree with you. I care and I think the audience cares. That's how I ended up with the Collings!

But just to play devil's advocate, does the audience really care? They don't know what I left at home guitar-wise nor do many of them know or care about acoustic guitar tone.

I was watching some clips of Ed Sheeran on Austin City Limits. He's just beating the heck of his tiny little Martin. It sounded exactly like someone pummeling a tiny little Martin with a Fishman under saddle transducer. But he was making some interesting loops and playing songs that the audience knew and they were into it!

Some of my biggest songwriting/performing heroes have pretty bad live guitar tone but they are who they are and they get to do what they do!

I'm not saying this would be a reason I would show up with "less" of a guitar. It's just interesting to think about.

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I recently went to see him looking forward to his Martin OM tone, and was very disappointed to hear the faux acoustic sound that his Taylor gave him - practical but not endearing.

Great points Silly Moustache! Your statement above really struck me. "Practical but not endearing." That is not a bad way to sum up the tone of the thin-bodied "acoustic" guitar!

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I still play Collings wherever I go, but if I was gigging nightly and in some difficult or places or noisy audiences, I might go for something else .......I doubt it.

Those DS guitars from Collings are something else!

My DS is damaged. I've never had much trepidation about playing any of my nice guitars live but even less with this one. I'd still be sad if something happened but like I said, because of the damage I feel like it's kind of a perfect road guitar.

Thanks again!
Matt

[gfa]

...

But just to play devil's advocate, does the audience really care? They don't know what I left at home guitar-wise nor do many of them know or care about acoustic guitar tone.
...
[/QUOTE]

I think the overwhelming majority of audience members don't care about tone (absent something really out on the edge of the curve).

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by gfa

I think the overwhelming majority of audience members don't care about tone (absent something really out on the edge of the curve).

Maybe not. I don't know. I do know that I tend to play better when I'm happy with the way I sound and I'm certain that comfort level and enjoyment translates to the audience.

Matt

[Cuki79]

Since both guitar have their plugged in tone based on Baggs element.

Why can't you just use the Anderson with Tonedexter Colling's wavemap?

In this video, James does it with a Yamaha silent guitar and it works.


PS: You can send me a pm if you want to further discuss this idea.

Cuki

[MrErikJ]

So, let's do an experiement (admittedly, an imperfect one). Let's look at three different performances by JT himself using, more or less, the same setup but progressing from single source UST, to dual source, and then modeling. I would like to hear thoughts on the change in tone and timbre across the different performances and methods and, at performance volume, how much is gained from each:

James Taylor Live (early 90s): Olson SJ, Baggs LB6, Pendulum preamp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP0k5x8DuHM

James Taylor One Man Show, 2007: Olson SJ, Baggs LB6, DPA mic, Pendulum or Baggs preamp
https://youtu.be/Q4HXCRk2re0


James Taylor at Guitar Center, 2015: Olson SJ, Baggs LB6, Tonebone PZ Pre, and Fishman Aura
https://youtu.be/CYqeuI6PLV8

My point is not "that they are the same" or that "there is no gain in tone" but what is the gain to those who aren't looking for it? If the same, non-guitar playing, audience member was in attendance at each did they stop and say "Wow, that Olson sounds so much more REAL"?

You definitely want to sound good but you will never be able to replicate all the intricacies of an acoustic guitar's tone when playing at amplified levels. Even if you sat, motionless, in front of a high-end condenser mic, the details would be lost upon the audience due to the size of the room and the volume of the amplification.

Always get the best sound that you can but I also think guitarists lose their priorities in pursuit of "perfect" tone. And, how good do you need to sound to make your audience happy? You need to sound good but you need to play great.

[rokdog49]

this^^^^
Getting a decent tone is sufficient for me. Nobody in any given audience gives a hoot and neither do I.

[zhunter]

How much of the "tone" you are getting from the Collings is actually the guitar's acoustic tone you hearing due to proximity? In my experience, amplification has to be pretty doggone loud before the direct acoustic sound is completely buried.

hunter