Blind lemon Jefferson theory

[sinister]

Originally Posted by grim83

My belief is that his and most other bluesmens knowledge of theory was minimal to non existant. We're usually talking about poor black share croppers. Think about that. Most were completely illiterate so I have a hard time believing they were musically literate either. They learned songs from one another and had to rely on their ear. The world we live in is much different especially here in the states almost every one is literate and thanks to the internet lessons on theory and such are a dime a dozen. I believe this causes us to over analyze the music and add rules that were never there in these folk traditions like the blues.

that does make a lot of sense. I think I will just continue to play and have fun with my limited theory knowledge as I seem to just fine that way.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by sinister

that does make a lot of sense. I think I will just continue to play and have fun with my limited theory knowledge as I seem to just fine that way.

i'd recommend continuing to play and have fun, but also give some attention to what the chord progression is, and then try and relate the runs, licks, and fills to those chords and the overall key.

that way you'll have all the fun and also learn a little about what works or sounds a certain way, and then you can apply it elsewhere.

[grim83]

Originally Posted by sinister

that does make a lot of sense. I think I will just continue to play and have fun with my limited theory knowledge as I seem to just fine that way.

Use your ear and let the feeling lead where you need to go. This to me is the biggest departure from the old way for instance look at Albert king versus say Clapton, Albert had no clue about modes and such he just knew how to put his soul into his playing and it has a very organic feel. Clapton on the other hand has a very good understanding of theory and it can get a bit robotic he plays with his head and not his heart imho. Albert once said he spent seven years learning everybody else's licks before playing for anyone. The blues is not about knowledge it's about heart and feeling and you heavily borrow from those around you and before you. I remember an interview with buddy guy where he said he saw Clapton playing and later he told him he had one song that was just jamming and Clapton replied yea you should like it it's your lick.

[Cone Head]

Originally Posted by sinister

I am one of the few who like his music. I am the only one I know of lol I love playing his music and listening to it.

If you can truthfully say that, then you probably haven't been looking very closely. He's one of the most widely known country blues guitarists, and one of the most influential.


This strikes me as contradictory:

Originally Posted by sinister

I can play all of his music

Originally Posted by sinister

as I myself just am trying to learn the blues scale in each key. but wondering if thats really enough to understand this amazing guitar player.

Pardon my skepticism, but if you're still at the "learning the blues scale in each key" it is highly unlikely that you can play Lemon's music. On the other hand, if you could play it, you would already know how little it actually has to do with "blues scales" and their application to different keys.

You'll have to pardon my skepticism, but I have heard the "I can play Lemon's music" claim more than a handful of times, and every time it turned out to be someone superimposing his lyrics over some simplified guitar parts.

If you really want to learn how tom play Lemon's music, you should look into this DVD (yeah, Lemon is so unpopular that they made a DVD for "the few who like his music" haha).



The instructor, Ari Eisinger, can actually play the stuff properly.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by grim83

... Albert once said he spent seven years learning everybody else's licks before playing for anyone. The blues is not about knowledge it's about heart and feeling and you heavily borrow from those around you and before you...

i would say all those years learning everybody else's licks are a form of knowledge. not formal, which is probably what you meant.

Originally Posted by Cone Head

...
Pardon my skepticism, but if you're still at the "learning the blues scale in each key" it is highly unlikely that you can play Lemon's music...

on the other hand, i suspect that blind lemon also could not play the blues scale in all keys. anyway, sinister is here to learn, so nice of you to provide some resources.

Originally Posted by Cone Head

...You'll have to pardon my skepticism, but I have heard the "I can play Lemon's music" claim more than a handful of times, and every time it turned out to be someone superimposing his lyrics over some simplified guitar parts...

but that is playing his music.

[grim83]

Originally Posted by mc1

i would say all those years learning everybody else's licks are a form of knowledge. not formal, which is probably what you meant.

Yes thank you. My biggest point here is most people make two big mistakes when looking at the blues.

A. This is not Mozart these are not classically trained musicians they did not understand theory and whatever exposure they would have had to it was minimal. You can't learn the blues from a book the blues is learned through a whole lot of sweat and tears.

B. We tend to forget that the African musical system (if you can call it that) is vastly different from the western system we use and the blues is a bridge between them, hence the use of slides and lots of bends etc where your not playing an actual note from the western system but one that is somewhere in between.

[sinister]

Originally Posted by Cone Head

If you can truthfully say that, then you probably haven't been looking very closely. He's one of the most widely known country blues guitarists, and one of the most influential.


This strikes me as contradictory:




Pardon my skepticism, but if you're still at the "learning the blues scale in each key" it is highly unlikely that you can play Lemon's music. On the other hand, if you could play it, you would already know how little it actually has to do with "blues scales" and their application to different keys.

You'll have to pardon my skepticism, but I have heard the "I can play Lemon's music" claim more than a handful of times, and every time it turned out to be someone superimposing his lyrics over some simplified guitar parts.

If you really want to learn how tom play Lemon's music, you should look into this DVD (yeah, Lemon is so unpopular that they made a DVD for "the few who like his music" haha).



The instructor, Ari Eisinger, can actually play the stuff properly.

Yes you are right that is who I learned from. I got his dvd on lemon a few years back.

[sinister]

Originally Posted by mc1

i'd recommend continuing to play and have fun, but also give some attention to what the chord progression is, and then try and relate the runs, licks, and fills to those chords and the overall key.

that way you'll have all the fun and also learn a little about what works or sounds a certain way, and then you can apply it elsewhere.

that is great advice which i will use. i do pay attention quite often to what key is being used and pretty much go from there, when playing with other who are trading off with rhythm. but i was told something years ago by a guitar player that had been playing for many years, that what ever key your in you can play the notes from that scale throughout the chord arrangement to come up with a lead run solo. but It never sounded correct to me as how is the key of lets say key of C blues scale, how is it going to go With the the rest of the chords, lets say the usual1, 4, 5 pattern. so C F G. is it simply because you are still in key ? but what about other chord progressions that are not 1 4 5 .I was allso told, if its the blues scale i want to use with major chord progression i have to go down 3 notes from c to a and do the 'a' blues scale and make a solo out of that. as its just how theory works. but none of that makes a lot of sense when i go to play it. so i just throw this theory stuff out the window as it doesn't sound good to me, and I find myself playing what sounds good again and not learning theory which happens most of the tims i go to learn so called theory. I think im just going to keep learning real theory which is what sounds good as thats where theory came from anyways lol

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by sinister

Yes you are right that is who I learned from. I got his dvd on lemon a few years back.

OK. So if you are "kinda stumped at what he is actually doing on a lot of his [BLJ's] music", I presume you just copied Eisinger note for note, without actually thinking about what you were playing, or comparing it to what you already know?

Originally Posted by sinister

, as to why hes is doing it

That bit's easy! Because he thought it sounded good!

Originally Posted by sinister

he goes completely out of the basics

Well it depends what you mean by "basics".

The "basics" are certainly not the western major scale, of course, but neither are they what we generally call "blues scale", which is a simplified formula, a western reduction of blues vocal practices; not guitar or instrumental ones. At least, when an instrument does employ "blues scale" (however you define that), it's trying to copy vocal practices.

The "basics" BLJ is working from are chords - mostly the three dom7s (I IV V) you're probably familiar with. His embellishments will add notes, usually chromatic approaches, usually exploring the tension between vocal blues scale (its organic flexibility), and the major/dom7 nature of the chords: working from the blues scale to the chord tones, or vice versa. This is standard stuff now, although of course BLJ was among the first to have been widely heard doing it, and therefore probably the biggest inflluence on all later blues musicians.
(There's a theory that blues uses "7th partials", which means natural scale degrees outside the western tempered system. There is some evidence for this, but you needn't know anything about that to play blues - by BLJ or anyone - or understand how it works.)

In a simple sense, he is accompanying himself with the standard triads and 7th chords (or partial versions) while singing, and in between the singing he's using the guitar in a call-and-response fashion, playing vocal-like lines as answers to his vocal phrases.

Personally, I've not used any learning DVD. I learned from BLJ's recordings themselves. I see no need for anyone else to break down what I can hear and work out for myself. (I'm not saying I can play his music, at least not faultlessly, but I understand perfectly well what he was doing.)

[pegleghowell]

Lemon`s stuff is some of the trickiest stuff in the "country blues".Like JonPR
I figured his stuff from records and cd.I`ve been playing nearly 40 years and
still wish I had ten fingers on each hand when I play Lemon`s stuff.He certainly achieved a lot with those"basics".

[sinister]

Originally Posted by pegleghowell

Lemon`s stuff is some of the trickiest stuff in the "country blues".Like JonPR
I figured his stuff from records and cd.I`ve been playing nearly 40 years and
still wish I had ten fingers on each hand when I play Lemon`s stuff.He certainly achieved a lot with those"basics".

yes he sure did i tell you what..not to sure they are "basics" myself lol i can play his music but doing it as fluently and smooth is a completely different story. as well as putting vocals on top. I have never heard anyone even sounds mostly like BLJ

[sinister]

Originally Posted by JonPR

OK. So if you are "kinda stumped at what he is actually doing on a lot of his [BLJ's] music", I presume you just copied Eisinger note for note, without actually thinking about what you were playing, or comparing it to what you already know?
That bit's easy! Because he thought it sounded good!
Well it depends what you mean by "basics".

The "basics" are certainly not the western major scale, of course, but neither are they what we generally call "blues scale", which is a simplified formula, a western reduction of blues vocal practices; not guitar or instrumental ones. At least, when an instrument does employ "blues scale" (however you define that), it's trying to copy vocal practices.

The "basics" BLJ is working from are chords - mostly the three dom7s (I IV V) you're probably familiar with. His embellishments will add notes, usually chromatic approaches, usually exploring the tension between vocal blues scale (its organic flexibility), and the major/dom7 nature of the chords: working from the blues scale to the chord tones, or vice versa. This is standard stuff now, although of course BLJ was among the first to have been widely heard doing it, and therefore probably the biggest inflluence on all later blues musicians.
(There's a theory that blues uses "7th partials", which means natural scale degrees outside the western tempered system. There is some evidence for this, but you needn't know anything about that to play blues - by BLJ or anyone - or understand how it works.)

In a simple sense, he is accompanying himself with the standard triads and 7th chords (or partial versions) while singing, and in between the singing he's using the guitar in a call-and-response fashion, playing vocal-like lines as answers to his vocal phrases.

Personally, I've not used any learning DVD. I learned from BLJ's recordings themselves. I see no need for anyone else to break down what I can hear and work out for myself. (I'm not saying I can play his music, at least not faultlessly, but I understand perfectly well what he was doing.)

well if you want to hear what hes doing behind the vocals a good portion of the time you cant hear. and so without the right programs and some way to change the levels of what he is doing there is no way in this life you will ever figure out what hes doing. even if you have perfect hearing. and so how do you go about trying to do it ? well the answer is you obviously cant lol you can think you are but thats like saying you can also make water into wine and i call bs on both lol
thanks for the info though it helps a lot.
btw you would be surprised that most of the time the more intriguing and technical guitaring he does is the parts you cant even hear, unless like i say if you have some editing programs or something of the sort as its just impossible to know without.