Monitor Placement

[Mr Fixit eh]

So... getting a duo performance going with guitar, two vocals, and drums. We're having trouble to hear ourselves when we perform plugged-in. When I play solo, I put two speakers about 5 feet behind me and 15 feet to either side, angled just enough so I can pick up the sound - seems to work pretty well and I don't get feedback.

Our duo played out recently, and I put the one speaker almost beside us 5 feet away and very slightly in front, the other was about 5 feet behind and 5 feet out. As I turned up the volume to reach the crowd (long and narrow farmer's market), I started to get feedback, so I moved up the speaker to beside us. Trouble was, now we couldn't hear ourselves very well.

I was thinking about getting a small monitor like the Galaxy Hotspot 7 . I was thinking about putting it out in front, pointing back towards us.

Question - will the monitor hitting the guitar soundboard generate feedback? Is there a better placement of the monitor?

Steve

[lschwart]

Do you have separate control over the volume of the two speakers you mention in your post (for example, one coming out of the main out of a mixer and the other from an auxiliary output)? If not, you should, and you can play around with the mix in the monitor. There shouldn't be a huge feedback problem from the amount of volume you'll need from a speaker on a pole (at around just above head height) serving as a monitor behind you--even directly behind you--although a lot depends on how loudly your drummer is playing (encourage him or her to play with the utmost restraint). Also, have you tried using the speaker pointed at you from the side? Or behind the main speaker pointed back at you? Do you know where the feedback is coming from (one guitar? vocal mic? how are the mics placed? Are the drums mic'd at all)?

A Hotspot might work for you, and it might not. Note that those small near-field monitors work best when they can be close to an individual performer, so the volume doesn't have to be loud. One might not cover you both very well, but one for each performer might work. Also those little speakers don't often sound all that good. But you should try it if you can't get your two speaker setup to work (although I'd work at that first, since it should be workable). I haven't tried one yet, but I hear good things about the new TC Helicon FX 150 Personal PA and Monitor--my guess is that it sounds better than a Hotspot, and it might be worth looking into if you go that route.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...nal-pa-monitor

Note that feedback from a monitor hitting the soundboard of your guitar can be a problem with some kinds of pickups (SBT, internal mics), but not so much with others (magnetic, UST). Note also that there are EQ solutions for more difficult, higher volume situations, when creative speaker/monitor placement fails you.

Louis

[Mr Fixit eh]

Originally Posted by lschwart

Do you have separate control over the volume of the two speakers you mention in your post (for example, one coming out of the main out of a mixer and the other from an auxiliary output)? If not, you should, and you can play around with the mix in the monitor. There shouldn't be a huge feedback problem from the amount of volume you'll need from a speaker on a pole (at around just above head height) serving as a monitor behind you--even directly behind you--although a lot depends on how loudly your drummer is playing (encourage him or her to play with the utmost restraint). Also, have you tried using the speaker pointed at you from the side? Or behind the main speaker pointed back at you? Do you know where the feedback is coming from (one guitar? vocal mic? how are the mics placed? Are the drums mic'd at all)?

A Hotspot might work for you, and it might not. Note that those small near-field monitors work best when they can be close to an individual performer, so the volume doesn't have to be loud. One might not cover you both very well, but one for each performer might work. Also those little speakers don't often sound all that good. But you should try it if you can't get your two speaker setup to work (although I'd work at that first, since it should be workable). I haven't tried one yet, but I hear good things about the new TC Helicon FX 150 Personal PA and Monitor--my guess is that it sounds better than a Hotspot, and it might be worth looking into if you go that route.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...nal-pa-monitor

Note that feedback from a monitor hitting the soundboard of your guitar can be a problem with some kinds of pickups (SBT, internal mics), but not so much with others (magnetic, UST). Note also that there are EQ solutions for more difficult, higher volume situations, when creative speaker/monitor placement fails you.
Louis

No, I don't have separate controls for the two speakers - L and R channel of the main output.

Steve

[MikeBmusic]

As Louis mentions, you're going to need an output from your mixer specifically for the monitor. What are you using for a PA - mixer, amp, speakers, etc?

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by Mr Fixit eh

No, I don't have separate controls for the two speakers - L and R channel of the main output.

Steve

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

As Louis mentions, you're going to need an output from your mixer specifically for the monitor. What are you using for a PA - mixer, amp, speakers, etc?

Yup! Step one is getting separate control of the levels (and even the mixes). I suspect that this will make the puzzle-solving matter of speaker and mic placement a lot easier to handle, though it will remain a puzzle to be solved by experiment.

Louis

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Mr Fixit eh

…Question - will the monitor hitting the guitar soundboard generate feedback? Is there a better placement of the monitor?

HI Steve...

Of course, it will.

I started using an acoustic stage amp about 3-5 feet behind me, up above waist level (30-35" off the floor) in around 2005. I ask the sound techs to remove my guitar from the monitor directly in front of me. To aim a floor monitor at the lower bout of a guitar from close range is like pointing a mic at a speaker from the same distance - and it will invite trouble.

Often feedback control is about common sense, not better/more gear.

When I'm in places where they cannot remove me from the monitor, I drag it to my left and behind me (so my body shields the lower bout from it). Or I'll ask to have it removed/unplugged. I've even dragged them behind me and turned monitors around backwards when they could not be unplugged. I'm very polite about it, and ask the techs to help me. The monitor is there to assist me, not fulfill some tech's calling.

Unfortunately not every venue has separate control over individual monitors. But I do.

[Mr Fixit eh]

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

As Louis mentions, you're going to need an output from your mixer specifically for the monitor. What are you using for a PA - mixer, amp, speakers, etc?

I'm using a StagePas 600i - 2 passive speakers powered by a powered mixer. I'm using them on stands such that the bottoms of the speakers rest at about shoulder height. I don't currently have a separate monitor.

steve

[Mr Fixit eh]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

HI Steve...

Of course, it will.

I started using an acoustic stage amp about 3-5 feet behind me, up above waist level (30-35" off the floor) in around 2005. I ask the sound techs to remove my guitar from the monitor directly in front of me. To aim a floor monitor at the lower bout of a guitar from close range is like pointing a mic at a speaker from the same distance - and it will invite trouble.

Often feedback control is about common sense, not better/more gear.

When I'm in places where they cannot remove me from the monitor, I drag it to my left and behind me (so my body shields the lower bout from it). Or I'll ask to have it removed/unplugged. I've even dragged them behind me and turned monitors around backwards when they could not be unplugged. I'm very polite about it, and ask the techs to help me. The monitor is there to assist me, not fulfill some tech's calling.

Unfortunately not every venue has separate control over individual monitors. But I do.

Hi Larry,

This stage amp, is it a monitor or your main FOH speaker?

Steve

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Mr Fixit eh

Hi Larry,

This stage amp, is it a monitor or your main FOH speaker?

Steve

Hi Steve...

In most situations, it is my stage monitor. If it's a small venue (little coffee house, old folk's home etc) I'll just plug in a mic as well and make it a mini-PA.

We also have a PA which we normally fly over the top of us (the bottom of the speaker is between 6-8 feet above the stage depending on the venue and height of the ceiling). There are times we separate speakers to appropriate stage width and run them from the front of the room.

When I was talking about stage monitors & feedback, I was talking about when we go to venues with a system in place which we need to integrate with.

My amp is still in it's normal place 3-5 feet behind me and 30-35" above the stage. It's my one constant no matter where I'm playing/singing. I only put a vocal mic in it if it is my mini-PA. For all other venues, I plug mics into the PA system.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by Mr Fixit eh

I'm using a StagePas 600i - 2 passive speakers powered by a powered mixer. I'm using them on stands such that the bottoms of the speakers rest at about shoulder height. I don't currently have a separate monitor.

steve

OK, well that explains one big aspect of your problem. Unless you run a powered speaker (or a power amp and speaker) from the monitor out, you have no way to get a proper level for the house while also getting a proper level for the stage. This is one limitation of a small portable all-in-one PA set up like this. A modest pair of powered speakers (or maybe even just one) will at least solve that problem and let you move on to how to best place you monitor or monitors.

Larry's use of a combo amp (or combo amps) for stage monitoring is another way to do it. Some combo amps (and some monitors like the Helicon FX150) will let you go into them first and then DI out to your PA. In some cases it's best to use a DI box or pre amp as a splitter, at least for the guitar (it depends on how the DI outs on the unit are configured).

Louis

[Mr Fixit eh]

Originally Posted by lschwart

OK, well that explains one big aspect of your problem. Unless you run a powered speaker (or a power amp and speaker) from the monitor out, you have no way to get a proper level for the house while also getting a proper level for the stage. This is one limitation of a small portable all-in-one PA set up like this. A modest pair of powered speakers (or maybe even just one) will at least solve that problem and let you move on to how to best place you monitor or monitors.

Larry's use of a combo amp (or combo amps) for stage monitoring is another way to do it. Some combo amps (and some monitors like the Helicon FX150) will let you go into them first and then DI out to your PA. In some cases it's best to use a DI box or pre amp as a splitter, at least for the guitar (it depends on how the DI outs on the unit are configured).

Louis

Yes, I was thinking about getting something like a Galaxy Hot Spot or Helicon FX150, and trying to figure out where I'd but it.

steve

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by lschwart

…Larry's use of a combo amp (or combo amps) for stage monitoring is another way to do it. Some combo amps (and some monitors like the Helicon FX150) will let you go into them first and then DI out to your PA.
…In some cases it's best to use a DI box or pre amp as a splitter, at least for the guitar (it depends on how the DI outs on the unit are configured).

Hi Louis...

I say in every case it's best to use the preamp or blender output to feed a second source. I find the DI output of amps very unreliable, noisy, and prone to 60 cycle hum, unexpected distortion, and other side effects.

It's really easy to just pull a second feed off the preamp/DI.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by Mr Fixit eh

Yes, I was thinking about getting something like a Galaxy Hot Spot or Helicon FX150, and trying to figure out where I'd but it.

steve

A lot will depend on what you have your drummer doing. Is it full kit or hand percussion? Does he play with some restraint and subtlety? I assume he needs to hear too. A Hotspot might work for one singer, not so much for guitar monitoring and it will struggle to cover you and a drummer. Maybe the FX150 is better, but you'll have to try it. Depending on the drummer and who will be served by this monitor, you may need something more robust (a 10" powered speaker, for example, or a combo amp or two).

Louis

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Louis...

I say in every case it's best to use the preamp or blender output to feed a second source. I find the DI output of amps very unreliable, noisy, and prone to 60 cycle hum, unexpected distortion, and other side effects.

It's really easy to just pull a second feed off the preamp/DI.

Depends on the amp. I never had trouble using the DI outs on my ProLT, but I imagine it might be more touch and go with other amps. I seldom lug the amp to gigs any more, though, and get better and easier monitoring from the various configurations of my PA set up (whether acoustic solo/duo/trio or with the full band).

One thing I do use a second feed from my preamp for is to send a signal to my drummer's stage monitor to make sure he can hear my rhythm guitar when we're playing with the full band. That's been crucial for us and more efficient than using one of the aux sends of the mixer to just send him the guitar.

Louis

[jamison162]

Don't mean to butt in..but I have a similar question. In my limited experience actually running sound, the monitor mixes have basically been level control only per channel per monitor send.

What are the options, if any, for eq'ing a monitor mix separately?