Has anyone experienced intonation issues with a Froggy Bottom?

three4rd · #1 03-16-2018, 07:37 PM

Hi,

I am doing a trial period for a Froggy that I picked up recently and am noticing some intonation issues with the octaves across the fingerboard. I've read about how intonation problems can be linked to the levels of compensation with the saddle (which is all a bit over my head). I cannot live with any sort of noticeable difference between untrue octaves or duplicated pitches that differ by even a few cents. I expect this from my 40+ year old low-end acoustic, but a Froggy? Hopefully a change of strings will help. Any thoughts? Weird how some chords sound perfect, and others are significantly off (as in too far off to live with).

Thanks for any ideas....

ChalkLitIScream · #2 03-16-2018, 07:48 PM

Capo the first fret, then compare the 12th fret harmonic and fretted note. If the fretted notes sharp, you can file the place where the string leaves the saddle back( toward the bridge pins). If its flat, you need a new saddle.
Now if your first 2 or 3 fret notes are off, the nut slots are probably too high.

The guitar probably just needs a new saddle. Maybe it was set right in a different humidity level with different action at the saddle.

Picker2 · #3 03-17-2018, 02:25 AM

I have never had intonation issues on any guitar whatsoever, Froggies included. For me, fretting a string does not mean pushing it with perfectly reproducible force against the neck. I think there is a continuous -20 to +100 cents margin in almost every note I play. I am constantly fiddling with pitch and intonation, corrections included.

In the case of your Froggy: change the strings. Maybe the strings are heavier or lighter than the strings used during setup. Or the saddle height was changed. In any case, it will be an easy fix.

gitarro · #4 03-17-2018, 02:34 AM

I have noticed that froggy guitars seem to come with an uncompensated saddle from.the shop. They must be virtually the only small shop brand that sticks with uncompensated saddles. I have always wondered as to whether the intonation will suffer as a result.

Wade Hampton · #5 03-17-2018, 02:35 AM

three4rd, any guitar can develop intonation problems with gradual changes in the instrument's neckset geometry or with a move from one climatic zone to another. If the guitar was shipped to you from some distance away, that might have caused the problem. Another way to booger up a guitar's intonation is to use a radically different string gauge than what was previously on it, or tuning a step lower with the same gauge strings.

All of these factors can have an impact.

As for the quality of the instrument itself, many first time buyers of fine instruments assume that buying an expensive handbuilt guitar means that there should never be ANY problems with it. But the more lightly a guitar is built, it can often change with the weather or develop these sorts of problems - high dollar guitars are often more sensitive in this regard than inexpensive guitars, which tend to be more robust.

I would recommend that you figure out what set of strings you like best on this guitar, and once you do that and the guitar's had a chance to acclimate for a week or ten days, take it to a good local guitar tech to get dialed in perfectly for those strings and for the way you play.

Hope that makes sense.

Wade Hampton Miller

BrunoBlack · #6 03-17-2018, 04:49 AM

I have 2 Froggies a Custom K and an H12. And as you point out they come with a saddle that is not compensated. When I received the commissioned K I noticed the intonation was slightly off for low E and B strings. I contacted Michael and he sent me to a local tech that performs his warranty work and he slightly adjusted the relief, saddle & nut heights and compensated the saddle. This adjusted the intonation perfectly. The H12 I bought off the shelf has always been good, with no compensation required.. I’ve been told that shorter scale guitars like the H12 I own have less issues with intonation, but to answer your question - another yes here.

psr-740 · #7 03-17-2018, 07:01 AM

I also picked a used Froggy recently, and mine was buzzzing. I took the guitar to a luthier I trust and he found that the nut needs to be replaced. Now she is amazing and better than a new guitar. Maybe Your guitar did not got a setup for a while, and it is is very possible that she needs one. Whatever the reason may be for the intonation problem, let a good luthier figure it it out.

Wade Hampton · #8 03-17-2018, 07:55 AM

Right - this sounds much more like an adjustment issue than anything else. Just let a pro take a look at it; it should be simple to remedy.

whm

ChuckS · #9 03-17-2018, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gitarro

I have noticed that froggy guitars seem to come with an uncompensated saddle from.the shop. They must be virtually the only small shop brand that sticks with uncompensated saddles. I have always wondered as to whether the intonation will suffer as a result.

Doesn’t FB use a narrow saddle (1/10”)? If so, there isn’t much space for compensation as compared to 1/8” or greater saddle width. I read quite some time ago that FB felt their narrow saddle was a factor in their tone and they did not like the change in tone with a wider saddle.

If intonation is critical for you consider a builder that compensates both the nut and saddle. However this needs to be done at the time of design and build, not by compensating the nut after the guitar is built. The guitar Alan Carruth built for me has a compensated saddle and nut. When building the guitar he did the compensation and setup using the strings I intended to use.

Rbutton · #10 03-17-2018, 08:23 AM

Intonation can be adjusted to a degree at the saddle and at the nut. The saddle is the more common method but few saddles are wide enough to make all the adjustments you will have to make. You can also set where the string breaks at the nut. You will drive yourself crazy making adjustments, and if you chang string gages or brand you can thow all the previous work out the window. I have a .125 widow saddle compensated with a “b” bump and low E bump. This works pretty well but not perfect. The factor that seems to have the greatest affect is the strings. In particular I have found that Martin FX string have the least amount of pulling the low E to sharp. I think it is because the core is thinner but cannot swear by it. You can never get a perfectly intonated guitar for ever string at every fret. That is just the nature of the beast. If you need perfect intonation at every note you will have to take up piano,

three4rd · #11 03-17-2018, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbutton

Intonation can be adjusted to a degree at the saddle and at the nut. The saddle is the more common method but few saddles are wide enough to make all the adjustments you will have to make. You can also set where the string breaks at the nut. You will drive yourself crazy making adjustments, and if you chang string gages or brand you can thow all the previous work out the window. I have a .125 widow saddle compensated with a “b” bump and low E bump. This works pretty well but not perfect. The factor that seems to have the greatest affect is the strings. In particular I have found that Martin FX string have the least amount of pulling the low E to sharp. I think it is because the core is thinner but cannot swear by it. You can never get a perfectly intonated guitar for ever string at every fret. That is just the nature of the beast. If you need perfect intonation at every note you will have to take up piano,

LOL...Actually, I'm a church organist / pianist..hence the discerning ear perhaps? Thanks to ALL for the great replies. Big decision to be made here since I have not yet completed the purchase on this instrument. I'm confident my local luthier could remedy this problem. Just had a long talk with him. Of course, the more significant the cause of the intonation irregularities, the greater the repair cost.

dkstott · #12 03-17-2018, 09:58 AM

I had intonation issues on my FB H12, but only when I tried New tone heritage strings. Something about those strings didn't agree with my setup on my FB. Never had any issues with any other brand of strings.

Earl49 · #13 03-17-2018, 10:01 AM

As a data point, try tuning down one-half step across the board to Eb, opr even a whole step to D. Lowered tunings tend to expose intonation issues that are not as evident at standard E-e pitch.

If you cannot correct the intonation to your satisfaction then you might need to explore "sweetened tunings" like James Taylor uses. Plenty of threads about that around here. No guitar will ever have perfect intonation. The second "b" string is a frequent offender for sounding out of tune and needing some tuning tweaks. I usually set my b string about 1-2 cents flat to help compensate.

BrunoBlack · #14 03-17-2018, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Doesn’t FB use a narrow saddle (1/10”)? If so, there isn’t much space for compensation as compared to 1/8” or greater saddle width. I read quite some time ago that FB felt their narrow saddle was a factor in their tone and they did not like the change in tone with a wider saddle.

If intonation is critical for you consider a builder that compensates both the nut and saddle. However this needs to be done at the time of design and build, not by compensating the nut after the guitar is built. The guitar Alan Carruth built for me has a compensated saddle and nut. When building the guitar he did the compensation and setup using the strings I intended to use.

This is true, it is 1/10”, but in my case I was being fussy and it needed very little adjustment, which was easily accomplished.

three4rd · #15 03-17-2018, 10:22 AM

Earl,

I know what you mean about the B string...seems to often be a source of pain all by itself. The whole tuning thing is a domino effect. Improving intonation one on string or frets can negatively impact something else. I'd like to believe that using the matching 5th and 7th fret harmonics method works well, but doesn't always seem to. From a technical standpoint, the 7th fret harmonic is a Pythagorean 5th, and the guitar fret at the 7th fret is an equal tempered 5th, so using this method can create some issues. I won't even go into the use of unusually altered tunings. There the ear has to reign supreme (really applicable to tuning in general).