Questions on the ryan cathedral and on any alternatives

[gitarro]

I am not certain if this is the right subforum for this question so here goes . I would like to canvass some opinions on the Kevin Ryan Cathedral guitar from people who have owned or played it for a significant period of time.

I have only played briefly one Cathedral before and I found it to be a totally unique and great experience.

It was like listening to music played in a cinema with surround sound, subwoofer and thx blasting.

It had the deepest, biggest and most wrap around bass i have heard in a guitar so far with nuch complexity of overtones but yet with clear shimmering trebles and mids. A very dramatic guitar indeed. But I only played it for a few minutes so that might have been only a first impression.

How do you find the guitar and did you end up keeping the guitar or do you sell it off ultimately because you found its tonal signature to be not as versatile as you thought? What was your favourite tonewood combination for this model?

Have you come across any other a brand of guitar that is made by any other Luthier that has the same big sound and huge reverb but yet clear trebles and mids?

[jmat]

Sounds like you want that Ryan. If so I say get it. As they say, in the long run we are dead.

That said, check out the Wingert F. Also I have played a Sexauer 16 inch lower bout in pernambuco that killed.

[gitarro]

Thank you for your reply. Does the wingert F have as big and deep a bass as the ryan cathedral?

[ericcsong]

I commissioned my Ryan Cathedral in 2004 and received it in 2006 for a 30th b-day gift for myself. 12 years later, its still one of my favorite guitars with such a deep cavernous bass that can only come from Kevin Ryan's largest bodied guitar. You played it and your comments on it pretty much nail it! I would say that if you were impressed initially, the guitar only gets much MUCH better from there!

I went to a Pierre Bensusan concert and fell in love with his Ryan Nightingale's sound that night. I called Kevin the next day and had a Bensusan Nightingale Braz/Cedar on order.....and that eventually changed to this African Blackwood/Bosnian Cathedral that I ultimately ended up with.

IMG_20151113_174759.jpg

I did my homework and I played as many Ryans I could get my hands on. One shop had 11 used Ryans for sale at the time and that was a wonderful chance to play so many by the same builder to play and compare. I then visited Soul Tree in Philadelphia and played an African Blackwood/Bosnian Cathedral with a Larry Robinson inlay done in black pearl. The Ryan logo was also in black pearl and the rosette done in the same material. It was simple, elegant, dark, big, bassy, and everything I wanted in a guitar. I called Kevin that day and changed my order to ABW/German Cathedral. Months went by and I changed the top to Bosnian because I couldn't get that one guitar out of my head.

I finally received my guitar and it was everything I expected. It was better than the guitar I remembered playing and it was finally mine! I had Kevin send my fretboard out to get a special rose inlay done at the 12th fret and Kevin accommodated all my needs.

So what has happened in the last 10+ years.......? I played a Somogyi! No other handmade luthier built guitar in over a decade did anything for me bass-wise or big in sound than my Cathedral. Many guitars were world class and had fat trebles, great balance, sustain for days, etc..... but if I wanted that big, cavernous bass, nothing came close to the Cathedral. I played a Somogyi OM and the bass for the size of the guitar was unlike anything I ever played. It was big, it was deep, it was cavernous, it was that Somogyi signature bass. After a few weeks thinking about it, I had to have it. My Ryan was finally up for sale.

I was chasing that Somogyi because it haunted me so much. Then I stumbled onto Michael Watts and his Jason Kostal build thread. I called Jason up and who knew that he would be in my neighborhood in the next week! More details in my first Kostal build thread:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=205642

Fast forward a few years and I have two Kostals and a third one coming! I could have ordered another Cathedral or two, but the Kostal's bass is simply unreal while still keeping balance across the strings and also great trebles.

After being tempted by a few Traugotts and other high end handmades, I restrung my Cathedral and played it once again. Once again, the magic happened. The guitar is so incredible and actually my most versatile guitar I own (even more than some OMs!). One of the big difference is the type of bass between the Ryan and the Kostal. The Ryan is big, deep, crystal clear and very round. Think of a big underground open cavern with still waters. You hear a drop on that water and hear everything resonate. At least thats the image I get when I play. The Kostal on the other hand is big, deep, round, thick, and very mysterious. Both very big and deep, but in very different ways.

I think there are many great options out there if you want big, bassy, and reverby. I think the bigger the guitar, the bigger the sound (not to be confused with louder). In my experience, if you want that Cathedral sound, you go for the Ryan. Guitargallery has a great used one for around $9k. Yuo can spend $5-7k on a nice handmade, but in my opinion, you won't get that Ryan Cathedral experience. You will get different

One thing to consider is that the Cathedral has a 25.7 inch scale. This is longer than most traditional guitars.

If you are ever in the Washington DC area, reach out and we'll play some fun guitars!

[gitarro]

What a detailed and great reply, Eric! Many thanks for taking the time and trouble to write that and for the offer to play your cathedral.

Like you, playing a somogyi guitar was a defining moment for me in my guitar tastes and i agree that the somogyi mod dread bass is quite different from the ryan cathedrals bass. The somogyi bass is the most profound bass of any guitar I have ever played with the sole exception of a brazilian Walker SJ which was as good but in a different way. The bass was wonderfully complex and multilayered in nature yet superbly clear and defined with a slightly dry leading edge and very deep and wide and always under control.and always perfectly balanced with the equally big trebles and mids.

The cathedral I played had a bass that seemed muxh more diffuse and wrap around - and it never pursued the use a of balance with the trebles and mids. If the somogyi bass was akin to the bass on a world class audiophile quality hi fi system, the cathedral bass was like a high end A.V. system with subwoofers.

Would a brazilian rosewood and spruce cathedral sound any different from an African blsckwood spruce one?

[jmat]

Originally Posted by gitarro

Thank you for your reply. Does the wingert F have as big and deep a bass as the ryan cathedral?

From the cathedral's I have played, I suspect not. The F is a jumbo influenced guitar that is geared toward balance and comfort. I like the F because it is, for me, a very comfortable guitar despite the size. I keep my F tuned D to D with medium strings and it commands that range well. Kathy could make it deeper and now makes a baritone version, so there are options.

If you are in the bay area go play Bruce's 16 Pernambuco jumbo (if he still has it). The guitar had the bass but also balance, clarity and sparkle. It was a bigger guitar than I want but the sound was something.

Then again, I always do what Eric tells me! He can play those Kostals.

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by gitarro

Have you come across any other a brand of guitar that is made by any other Luthier that has the same big sound and huge reverb but yet clear trebles and mids?

Ryans really do have a very characteristic sound, and IME there's nothing like them out there. It's not like Martin, Gibson, Olson or Somogyi where you can find other builders approximating that sound. Ryan is one of a kind.

[jaymarsch]

Originally Posted by gitarro

Have you come across any other a brand of guitar that is made by any other Luthier that has the same big sound and huge reverb but yet clear trebles and mids?

I recently purchased a guitar by Sparky Kramer that has a huge sound for its size (it would not be a comparison to the Cathedral). It has wonderful sustain, a nice deep bass and wonderful clean and clear mids and trebles. It is one of the most balanced guitars I have played with plenty of volume.

His Great Basin models that I have played are pretty amazing though too large for me. He is a luthier worth checking out but I agree that the voice of a Ryan is a very particular sound so if that is what you are looking for then Kevin is probably the guy you want to work with.

I own and play mostly mid-sized guitars, two by Kathy, and I agree that her F is not the same beast as a Ryan Cathedral. She makes one heck of a dread though.

Best,
Jayne

[colins]

I usually agree with Jayne and today is no exception … my Wingert E does not sound like a Ryan. I feel that Kathy and Kevin are doing different things.

Instead, the suggestion I have for you is based on a great afternoon I spent at Luthier’s Collection some years ago. I tried out a bunch of guitars including several Ryans. The Cathedral I found too large for comfort and it came down to a smaller Ryan and a guitar by a different builder that I finally bought, which was a G2S by Tom Bills. The G2S is OM size but with a deep body and 12 frets and the bass is stronger than any other guitar I have played. This one is my “Ferrari” – powerful, responsive and quite incredible to look at.

Col

[iim7V7IM7]

One thought...

Remember that a builder's work is typically NOT static thing, but naturally evolves over time. I suspect what Kevin does today in terms of his bracing and bridge plate does not resemble what he was doing a decade plus ago.

[ericcsong]

Originally Posted by gitarro

Would a brazilian rosewood and spruce cathedral sound any different from an African blsckwood spruce one?

I have played a handful of Brazilian Ryans and they truly are amazing instruments. The analogy that I give (and it only works if you like dark chocolate) is that Brazilian would be like a rich creamy milk chocolate and the ABW would be similar but in dark chocolate. There is a smooth darnkess that the ABW gives. But then again, it can all be psychological!

Originally Posted by jmat

Then again, I always do what Eric tells me!

Then again, I always do what John tells me!

When I visited Robin at Guitar Gallery, she had this interesting Hewett guitar with a tree inlay (http://www.hewettguitars.net) that reminded me of my Ryan. I couldn't quite place it, but I do remember thinking it was very Ryan-esque. I'm not a big fan of his bridge design, but I do remember that the guitar stood out from many tone-wise.

[gitarro]

Hello colins

Thanks for your reply. Tom Bills' G2 indeed has a.very interesting recorded tone from the clips. Is it a sound and bass as cavernous as the cathedral?

Originally Posted by colins

I usually agree with Jayne and today is no exception … my Wingert E does not sound like a Ryan. I feel that Kathy and Kevin are doing different things.

Instead, the suggestion I have for you is based on a great afternoon I spent at Luthier’s Collection some years ago. I tried out a bunch of guitars including several Ryans. The Cathedral I found too large for comfort and it came down to a smaller Ryan and a guitar by a different builder that I finally bought, which was a G2S by Tom Bills. The G2S is OM size but with a deep body and 12 frets and the bass is stronger than any other guitar I have played. This one is my “Ferrari” – powerful, responsive and quite incredible to look at.

Col

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by ericcsong

I have played a handful of Brazilian Ryans and they truly are amazing instruments. The analogy that I give (and it only works if you like dark chocolate) is that Brazilian would be like a rich creamy milk chocolate and the ABW would be similar but in dark chocolate. There is a smooth darnkess that the ABW gives. But then again, it can all be psychological!


Then again, I always do what John tells me!

When I visited Robin at Guitar Gallery, she had this interesting Hewett guitar with a tree inlay (http://www.hewettguitars.net) that reminded me of my Ryan. I couldn't quite place it, but I do remember thinking it was very Ryan-esque. I'm not a big fan of his bridge design, but I do remember that the guitar stood out from many tone-wise.

Thanks eric for sharing that.

[islandguitar]

While I have not played a Ryan, you might want to look into Tom Doerr's guitars. His larger model Solace is my thinking, although his Legacy model is his most popular.
Tom's guitars were influenced early on by Ryan, Olson, Charis, ahead of his developing his own designs around 2009. These are definitely guitars design in the fingerstyle realm and they are wonderful!

[Marcus Wong]

Originally Posted by gitarro

Would a brazilian rosewood and spruce cathedral sound any different from an African blsckwood spruce one?

I usually like to think of ABW as the only tonewood I can tell the tone of fairly consistently. I'm generally not a huge fan of the ABW sound due to the darkness in the sound, but it ultimately depends on the builder.