Cordoba Non-cutaway vs. cutaway tone?

[Rudy4]

Hi All,

I’ve lately had a bit of a craving to have a crossover nylon after pulling out an old ignored Karl Hauser and really liking the tone, but not the geometry. I’m temporarily satisfying my curiosity by making a new narrower and radiused ebony fret board for the Hauser, as I know it’s not valuable as a classical guitar. It does have a lovely bear claw spruce top and solid rosewood sides and back.

I’ve played guitar for 50 years, but never nylon. I’ve also made and worked on instruments for something like 30 years, so I have no qualms about the conversion of the Hauser to a crossover.

All that said, if I decide that I really like the crossover concept I’m thinking of purchasing a Cordoba Orchestra ($600), or the Fusion Natural 12 ($520). I’m not interested in spending any more than the $600 that the Orchestra goes for. I know these are solid tops and laminated sides and back, but other than that the differences appear to be mostly cosmetic.

I’m having difficulty finding anyone who can say if there’s any significant difference in tone between the cutaway models and the standard body. Anyone with opinions?

I’m also interested in string choices that would bring a little more edge to the treble strings. I’m considering trying the DAddario Pro Artes with the titanium trebles. Any other suggestions welcome, but you have to be nice.

Thanks!

[Ned Milburn]

On guitars in that range, I don't think you'll notice much difference in sound between the cutaway and non-cutaway models.

Regarding strings, I have always preferred Savarez Alliance trebles. You could try their mid and high tensions to see if that brightens up the treble enough for your liking. You can always use a different set of basses, like D'Addario's or anything cheap, at a lower tension to keep the bass sounding as rich as possible.

[Rudy4]

Thanks Ned.

I'm a big David Rawlings fan and it recently occurred to me that flatpicking (or fingerstyle play) on the classical yielded exactly the qualities of what I like about the sound he gets from that Epi Olympic. It's obviously not the same, but it's quite nice in its own right.

I've also got an old steel string Kay archtop that I'm going to re-neck to pursue that tone, but playing the classical that way really piqued my interest in trying the crossover style nylon strung guitar. I don't mind the limitations of the 12 fret non-cutaway, as my current favorite steel string is a 000 slot head 12 fret.

I'm rounding up a short list of high tension string sets to try out, most are inexpensive sets so not much invested to experiment a bit.

[Craig E.]

I saw a useful comparison on Music Villa's YouTube channel (The Acoustic Letter). They do an A/B test of a cutaway and non-cutaway Gibson Songwriter Deluxe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7Wz-XyZME0

I can hear a difference between the two guitars, but it might be my imagination . . . take a look and see what you think. Of course, these are steel string guitars, but I think the idea should help your nylon string search.

[Rudy4]

Hi Craig,
Thanks for the link, I did think it was informative to directly compare two "identical" guitars using an A / B technique. I also detected a slight differance in tone, with the non-cutaway seeming to have a bit more bass and some additional body resonance. The body resonance might be more apparant in the cutaway if the mic were positioned to pick up the upper area of the body (obviously not there in the cutaway example).

It seems that there just aren't that many people who can answer this question as it pertains to the Cordoba fusion series of nylon strung crossover guitars, though.

The two guitars I'm looking at have a few other small differences, ebony vs rosewood board, mahogany vs ivoriod binding, etc. but these are cosmetic for the most part.

I'm a bit enticed by the cutaway, but purely from a stylistic point of view. My last cutaway guitar was a Lowden Walnut and cedar, but to be quite honest I didn't find the upper access to be all that useful for my style of play.

The cutaway also has electronics. I haven't played out much since a broken collarbone a year ago, so I don't care about the amplification factor. I have K&K mini twin transducers in my other acoustics, so I'd probably prefer that if I ended up using it as a performance instrument.

On the other hand, I love wood binding and the traditional feel of a non-cutaway. Is I stated initially, I'd still love to hear if there's $80 worth of sound difference in the two.

[Craig E.]

Rudy,

A couple more thoughts for you:

I don't have direct experience with the Fusion and Orchestra models you're looking at, but I've had a Cordoba GK Studio Negra for a couple of years. It has a cutaway, and I bought it after trying several other non-cutaway Cordoba models including the C5, C7, and C9. I find my GK Studio Negra to be very resonant with plenty of fullness, despite the slimmer body and cutaway. It won out over the several others I tried, mostly because of the great playability, but the smaller body and cutaway didn't take much away from the sound. Classical guitars aren't braced as heavily, so it doesn't seem to take as much to get them humming.

Also, nylon string guitars are a lot easier to amplify than steel string guitars. Under-saddle pickups work quite well, and the addition of an internal microphone gives even more versatility. If you got the Orchestra cutaway (which comes with a dual source Fishman system), I doubt you'd have to replace the electronics with a K&K.

Having said all that, if you don't need the higher fret access or electronics, I guess there's no real reason to spring for the Orchestra. A cutaway normally won't make a guitar sound any better, all other things equal.

[Rudy4]

Thanks for the additional info Craig.

The Orchestra is the non-cutaway as I understand it, so I was mostly thinking it might actually sound better. The cutaway Fusion 12 with electronics is $80 cheaper than the non-cutaway, so that's mostly what made me wonder about the relative acoustic sound that the two models would produce.

[Craig E.]

Ah . . . Cordoba makes an Orchestra CE model, and I assumed that's what you were looking at. But I get it now -- the cutaway with electronics is the cheaper of the two. Well, now that I finally have your two options pinned down correctly, I'll give you one other observation from my own Cordoba comparisons: I found a pronounced difference between the C5 (mahogany) vs C7 (rosewood), as well as between the GK Studio (cypress) vs GK Studio Negra (rosewood). Even though they all have laminate back and sides, the rosewood models had much more bass response and overall fullness to my ear. That might be one advantage to the Orchestra model over the Fusion Natural.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Craig E.

Ah . . . Cordoba makes an Orchestra CE model, and I assumed that's what you were looking at. But I get it now -- the cutaway with electronics is the cheaper of the two. Well, now that I finally have your two options pinned down correctly, I'll give you one other observation from my own Cordoba comparisons: I found a pronounced difference between the C5 (mahogany) vs C7 (rosewood), as well as between the GK Studio (cypress) vs GK Studio Negra (rosewood). Even though they all have laminate back and sides, the rosewood models had much more bass response and overall fullness to my ear. That might be one advantage to the Orchestra model over the Fusion Natural.

Hi Craig,
That's precisely what I was curious about. Your observations would tend to confirm my suspicion that the Orchestra non-cutaway might have just a tad bit more of an advantage if I were looking for the bassier of the two with perhaps just a bit more resonance.

Since I appreciate the wood bindings and ebony board that might prove to be the better choice in my case. The rosewood vs mahogany back and sides wouldn't enter in from an asthetics point of view. It just seemed a bit strange to have the retail on the model without electronics to be $80 more.

Thanks again for your input!

[Acoustic Pain]

I have to agree with Craig. I also found the Rosewood to have such better sound qualities. He identified the bass. While I think that is correct my perception was an overall clarity. So maybe greater bass and clearer treble. Kind of the classic Rosewood "scooped" mids? And like Craig I also know not solid wood B/S so a little surprised myself.

I actually had the C5 before I returned. Sounded like playing through a pillow. I know a cedar top but just did not work.

Now I ended up with the Fusion 14RS. Even with the cutaway and also 14 frets puts the bridge forward. The forward bridge is a little less optimal to drive the top vs the 12 fret bridge farther back. I still like the sound, I find it to be clear and warm.

I say Spruce /Rosewood on these Cordoba's.

Just as a matter of general discussion on cutaways in my opinion. I have listened enough to know it does have a minor effect on the sound. I do not think it is necessarily an obvious good or bad. It is also somewhat subtle. And for me the benefit outweighs any possible drawback. Consider this, my guitars are recording guitars. Don't drummers sometimes put blankets and other stuff in their bass drum? For me can cut some "boominess" that might sound good in person but does not record as well. A little less "EQ'ing" for me.

Oh and they look so cool and really isn't that what it's all about?

[kauffmds]

I own a Cordoba CE Limited Edition cut away, nylon string acoustic/electric. I also own a full body dread, and I've just received a full body, traditional classical. IMO, the cut away has a bit less projection than the full bodied guitar, but you have to really listen to hear the difference.

I strung the Cordoba and the other classical (no tag, so I don't know where it was made), with identical strings. My Cordoba has a deeper, richer sound; I think the cut away brings out more of the base and mid tones, but the trebles are toned down. The full bodied guitar seems to project more, with a brighter sound.

I went to the local music store and compared cut away guitars with full bodied dreads and found pretty much the same sound difference. They didn't have any classical instruments for me to compare, but I compared 2 Taylor's and found the same projection difference.

However, I went from normal tension to hard tension strings and it made all the difference in the world on the Cordoba projection; they didn't make a huge difference on the full bodied classical, but the projection of the cut away increased quite a bit. I've also tried Saverez Cristal Corum hard tension strings (which is what Cordoba strung on my guitar originally), and I've put d'Addario hard tension strings on the Cordoba (EJ46), and the D'Addario strings beat the Saverez by a huge mile in tonal quality and projection on the Cordoba cut away.

I have to point out that my Cordoba is solid koa wood, and the other is mahogany sides and back with spruce top (I think...), so the tonal difference may be in the woods, rather than body style.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by kauffmds

I own a Cordoba CE Limited Edition cut away, nylon string acoustic/electric. I also own a full body dread, and I've just received a full body, traditional classical. IMO, the cut away has a bit less projection than the full bodied guitar, but you have to really listen to hear the difference.

I strung the Cordoba and the other classical (no tag, so I don't know where it was made), with identical strings. My Cordoba has a deeper, richer sound; I think the cut away brings out more of the base and mid tones, but the trebles are toned down. The full bodied guitar seems to project more, with a brighter sound.

I went to the local music store and compared cut away guitars with full bodied dreads and found pretty much the same sound difference. They didn't have any classical instruments for me to compare, but I compared 2 Taylor's and found the same projection difference.

However, I went from normal tension to hard tension strings and it made all the difference in the world on the Cordoba projection; they didn't make a huge difference on the full bodied classical, but the projection of the cut away increased quite a bit. I've also tried Saverez Cristal Corum hard tension strings (which is what Cordoba strung on my guitar originally), and I've put d'Addario hard tension strings on the Cordoba (EJ46), and the D'Addario strings beat the Saverez by a huge mile in tonal quality and projection on the Cordoba cut away.

I have to point out that my Cordoba is solid koa wood, and the other is mahogany sides and back with spruce top (I think...), so the tonal difference may be in the woods, rather than body style.

Hi Diane,
Thanks for the info. I opted to go for the full body Cordoba Fusion Orchestra, and I'll be playing around with Strings to see what I like the best. It has the stock Saverez strings on it, and my next set are slated to be the EJ46TT set initially. I've been collecting a short list of sets to try out.

[kauffmds]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Hi Diane,
Thanks for the info. I opted to go for the full body Cordoba Fusion Orchestra, and I'll be playing around with Strings to see what I like the best. It has the stock Saverez strings on it, and my next set are slated to be the EJ46TT set initially. I've been collecting a short list of sets to try out.

Hi Rudy,

I prefer the full body as well; I think you made a great decision. I'm toying with the idea of buying another classical, with a full body, cedar top, and mahogany sides and back.

I'd be interested on your opinion on the different strings.

[fnesnor]

Good choice! I also have a Cordoba Fusion that I enjoy playing.