What Would It Take?

[L50EF15]

To fill the gap in the mass market for affordable archtops? And by affordable, I mean a range from about $500 to about $2500.

I keep thinking about this, though I’m certainly in no position to make it happen (maybe with a winning lottery ticket &#128521. But spinning out my thoughts, I think it’s possible to fill the old Harmony/Kay slot, one Godin’s well regarded 5th Avenue also filled. Go from all laminated instruments through pressed solid wood to carved solid wood. Or leave out the carved versions entirely.

Intuitively, it seems that the archtop equivalent of a D-18 or J-45 could be sold at about the same price as those icons. And since all mass production North American acoustic guitars are flattops now, novelty value (I guess what they call “unique selling point” in biz speak) alone should garner sales.

If I could organize such an operation, I’d want both round hole and f-hole models; for players who have only played or heard something like a D-18, an f-hole archtop can be too abrupt a transition. Something like an L-4 would be easier in that regard. Ideally, the sizes would run small (14”); medium (“16); and large (“18).

Gibson has (or had) the tooling to mass produce solid pressed wood guitars, both historically and in more recent years with the Solid Formed instruments. But they have abandoned the market, and who knows what happened to the tooling. Heritage and Harmony are producing instruments in the old Gibson factory; no doubt the tooling and expertise are still there to make such instruments, but both companies are strictly sticking to electric guitars now.

These last points should tell me that I am proposing a fool’s errand. But I like tilting at windmills, at least conceptually. I even sent Gibson’s CEO a message on Instagram to the effect that they should produce archtops of the same woods and appointments as the Generation Collection. Of course, I got no response, but what the heck? Maybe it gave him a laugh.

What would it take?

Mods, please move this to the Builder’s subforum if you think it appropriate.

[Mandobart]

What would it take?

It would take a compelling business case to convince guitar makers to believe they can turn a profit building lower cost acoustic archtops. It ain't rocket surgery.

We've got The Loar starting at $750. Eastman archtops run from $1000 to $3000. It wouldn't take much effort for a would-be archtop builder to find out how many of these are selling, what they could sell theirs for and decide if there is a valid payoff.

Those of us who love archtops are interested for sure. But I question the purpose in trying to build an archtop to appeal to those that prefer flattops.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by L50EF15

...to fill the gap in the mass market for affordable archtops? And by affordable, I mean a range from about $500 to about $2500.

...spinning out my thoughts, I think it’s possible to fill the old Harmony/Kay slot, one Godin’s well regarded 5th Avenue also filled. Go from all-laminated instruments through pressed solid wood to carved solid wood. Or leave out the carved versions entirely.

Intuitively, it seems that the archtop equivalent of a D-18 or J-45 could be sold at about the same price as those icons. And since all mass production North American acoustic guitars are flattops now, novelty value (I guess what they call “unique selling point” in biz speak) alone should garner sales.

...Ideally, the sizes would run small (14”); medium (16"); and large (18")...

What would it take?...

A few reflections of my own:

• For better or worse archtops are, like resonators, considered by the mass guitar-buying public to be niche instruments associated with a narrow range of musical styles;
• Their tonal envelope, projection, and unforgiving nature - in their 1930's heyday they were considered virtuoso instruments - place technical demands on the typical "OM with 1-3/4" prewar neck" flattop player that as a whole they're unable/unwilling to meet, instead relying on the softer attack and longer sustain of a flattop (which also provide a certain instant gratification factor that most archtops don't);
• Just as Gibson discontinued the entry-level J-15 when it turned out to be too much guitar for too little money, they're not likely to produce affordable archtops of any kind - and it's my understanding that they never bothered to train any of their current personnel in the process of carving and tuning top and back plates (translation: absent the return of Jim Triggs or Ren Ferguson, or the hiring of a similarly-talented individual luthier, we've seen our last brand-new Super 400, L-5, L-4, etc.);
• Luthiers like Mark Campellone and Stephen Holst (among others) have long since proven that world-class hand-carved archtops can be produced on American soil for around $5K - and for a market that buys with their ears and hands rather than by the label on the headstock there's little incentive to spend three to five times as much for a factory instrument;
• For reasons best known to them alone, Godin has no intention of producing any more acoustic archtops in spite of the cult status of the 5th Avenue - this was confirmed in writing to a fellow AGF'er who inquired about the possibility of producing an all-acoustic 5th Avenue Jumbo around the $1K price point;
• Gretsch's New Yorker and Loar's LH-300 - both solid carved-top instruments priced in the $500 entry-level range and intended to compete with Godin's laminated 5th Avenue - were miserable failures both tonally and construction-wise, as was the Epiphone Masterbilt line of the 2010's;
• The better-quality Chinese instruments like Loar's LH-600/700 and Eastman's 600-Series (designed by late Epiphone guru Jim Fisch and pitched as excellent transition instruments for flattop players) own the affordable market hands-down when it comes to a new carved archtop, and there are still plenty of vintage USA Epiphones (both New York and, to a lesser extent, Kalamazoo) to be had for similar money so that much of the demand is met - much but not all, which leads me to:
• There was a long-standing rumor that Epiphone, having realized their error in producing the not-quite-fish/not-quite-fowl (mostly foul IME ) Masterbilts, were discontinuing them in favor of an all-carved line based on their historic New York models and priced to compete with Loar and Eastman - and although it never materialized the current 150th Anniversary Zephyr Deluxe Regent (a fairly-accurate rendition of a mildly-modified circa-1953 example) lends some credence to the story that they were at least in the early stages of development;
• There were similar rumblings that Guild was, also in response to Godin's 5th Avenue, set to offer a Korean-built reissue of the all-laminated Hoboken-era 16" A-50 archtop (erstwhile competitor to the Gibson L-48, Gretsch New Yorker, the midline Harmonys/Kays, and the better jobber/off-brands), as a companion to the solid-top 17" A-150 Savoy and based on the current T-50 Slim Jim - but with the demise of the 5th Avenue that too seems to have gone nowhere;
• There's a new generation of all-carbon-fiber archtops out there (pioneered by Rainsong in the '90s, several other makers - Emerald, Martin Lewis, and most notably Fibertone - have taken up the torch) that offer similar advantages to their flattop brethren in terms of durability, consistency, and tone (the latter admittedly very difficult to achieve with wooden instruments) at prices comparable to the best all-carved import and entry-level American luthier fare - a difficult combination to beat...

In short, an excellent idea in principle - FYI I'm 100% on board - but unfortunately highly unlikely to occur in practice...

[RLetson]

Short version of Steve's comprehensive post: There are already "affordable, . . . from about $500 to about $2500" acoustic archtops--just not a lot of varieties from a lot of builders. I own both a Loar and an Eastman, both bought new, both in that price range (though, to be sure, a decade or more ago). Then there is a decent stock of older instruments, though the sweet spot for, say, a pre-1950 Epi Triumph is probably around $3K. (My ears are not much impressed by old budget-range range archtops, but that's just me.)

From my interactions with builders, I suspect that much of the problem with low-dollar archtops might be that producing decent ones is labor- and skill-intensive--which might be one reason that decent ones come out of China, where labor and skill are cheaper. (Not lesser, as the Eastmans I've played attest--just not as expensive to acquire and maintain.)

[Robin, Wales]

What would it take?

Probably less than you are imagining. I would estimate that a $25,000 investment would give you a run of 50+ guitars. And you could expect a 20% ROI - but that includes all the time you would have to put into the project.

The reason that I say that is because I have done it. I ran Busker Guitars for 8 years. The concept was simple - get reso guitars OEM built that then came to me to be completed and set-up. And do it at the budget end of the market. I ran my brand and worked with Michael Messer on his. It was a lot of work to get everything built as we wanted, but we did have a LOT of expertise on hand from the most knowledgeable reso makers/collectors around the world.

And I did it again with mountain dulcimers: having them made to my specs by a small workshop in Branson, Missouri and selling them into Europe.

In this case, I would go to Godin in Canada for the OEM build. They don't have a custom shop for one-off guitars, but I know that they have done larger runs for distributors/sellers own brands in other countries in the past. And as an acoustic archtop is not something that they are considering themselves, an OEM production run would not be "competition".

I did write a concept letter to Godin asking if they would be building an acoustic archtop guitar themselves. Here's the gist of the text from my letter:

Has Godin thought about making a purely acoustic version of the 5th Avenue Jumbo archtop? I have the acoustic version of the standard body depth and love using it for roots Americana song accompaniment. I gig with the instrument just using a mic’ on stage, and it works perfectly, even when playing with a band. But I note that the acoustic 5th Avenue is no longer in production – perhaps there was simply a marketing problem.

There is a resurgence in roots music amongst the younger generation of folk musicians at present, and a number of artists are using older 40s/50s pressed birch acoustic archtops to play Carter style backing to their songs.

I think that, with the correct marketing, Godin has a hidden gem already in its grasp.

You have the Jumbo archtop bodies and the bolt on necks already in production – so there would be no additional tooling costs. I would be inclined to market such a guitar under the Art & Lutherie brand as the “Roots” model. It would fit well into the A&L line-up, and the marketing vibe already associated with the brand. I’d use the same colour schemes already used on the Americana line (faded black and bourbon burst).

I would set up the jumbo archtop acoustic guitars in the factory with D’Addario Pure Nickel EPN22 strings 13-56. As you already have a contract with D’Addario these could be branded as Godin.

Importantly, I would use an adjustable rosewood bridge rather than the Tusq version fitted to the 5th Avenues. The Tusq bridge is great for an electric p/u version but for purely acoustic playing then medium roundwound nickel (or monel) strings and a rosewood bridge gives the bottom end growl and punch that the deeper jumbo body will make really rich.

Fitting a rosewood bridge is the only part of the build process that would be a new process – everything else you are doing already.

I have seen Robert Godin in a video talking about how his first guitar was a cheap pressed acoustic archtop and that led him to want to produce the 5th Avenue. I can understand why the original 5th Avenue acoustic version didn’t sell that well – the line was advertised towards jazz players. However, putting an acoustic version of the Jumbo archtop into the Art and Lutherie line could work. As virtually all the production processes are already in operation, it wouldn’t be a big risk to try.

If you did decide to make an A&L version then on the website page I would have someone singing something like Wildwood Flower with the guitar – not just playing the instrument. This guitar should be advertised primarily for roots music song accompaniment. 90% of the purchasers who look towards the A&L line are going to sing with the guitar, be that bedroom players or gigging musicians – so make the marketing relevant.

If you do decide to go ahead with such a project and make an Art & Lutherie Roots model then put me down to buy one!!! I love the acoustic 5th Avenue I already have, but a slightly deeper body would give it just a shade more bass and round out the guitar timbre for more general acoustic guitar playing.

Their response was that they are not considering making an acoustic version of the 5th Avenue or 5th Avenue Jumbo.

So, if I was going to follow this up, then I would write asking what the minimum production run would be for them to build such a guitar for me. I would want them all the same colour - probably Bourbon Burst or Faded Black as they are two colour schemes they already use with the A&L guitars but not with the present 5th Avenues - so it would set this model apart. I would have them dispatched without bridges or strings. This would save a lot of production hours for them - and I wouldn't want the Tusq bridges or standard light strings anyway.

What goes on the headstock would be up for negotiation. Ideally I would want them to be the Busker Guitars "Roots" model. I know that anything I branded as Busker Guitars would have a market - and I think that the name "Roots" for the guitar is pretty appropriate. But I would have no problem with "by Godin" being added to whatever was on the headstock.

I would do all the set-ups myself (rosewood bridges and monel 13-56 strings) and sell the guitars direct to musicians via an on-line shop. I know that once the word got out that the first batch of 50 would go very quickly. I would be looking at <$650 in the US <£650 in the UK and <650 Euro in the EU as the direct selling price. Hopefully, I could get each instrument down below that.

I expect that Godin may come back with a 25 to 50 guitar minimum run for such a project - hence you would need around $25,000 spare cash to invest (at some risk - but really not that bad a risk). And you can expect that once you add up all the hours you would need to give to such a project that you would be working at below minimum wage. But you work when you want and have full control of the whole project. I saw the projects that I did not as being waged employment but as a way of getting a far higher return on my savings than putting the money in the bank.

OK, so there is no way I'm going to take on such a project again as I'm well and truly retired. But if anyone fancies having a go, please put me down for one of the guitars!!!!

[Mandobart]

Robin you have a well-thought out plan and experience to back it up. Would these be available outside the UK and EU?

Regardless I wish you success!

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

Robin you have a well-thought out plan and experience to back it up. Would these be available outside the UK and EU?

Regardless I wish you success!

As much as I am tempted to take on the project my wife would rightly point out that I have said that I am retired! And I have just secured a £25,000 grant from the government to build an extension to our community workshop in our village. That plus the residential course in the summer and canoe wilderness trip to Sweden in the autumn I'm running for a cancer charity called "Odyssey" will see me through this year.

Someone else should have a go at this. In fact, someone in Canada or the US would be better placed logistically. Perhaps the AGF should try something like this as a club project. If we had 25 of us wanting to buy we could make an approach to Godin as a club. Someone would have to co-ordinate and lead the show. And that's quite an ask.

[mr. beaumont]

They made a 5th Avenue acoustic for years, then discontinued it...

Clearly not a big enough seller. Bummer. People don't know what they're missing.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

...Someone else should have a go at this. In fact, someone in Canada or the US would be better placed logistically. Perhaps the AGF should try something like this as a club project. If we had 25 of us wanting to buy we could make an approach to Godin as a club. Someone would have to co-ordinate and lead the show. And that's quite an ask.

We'd need an archtop-playing AGF member with both a high profile (for credibility with the Godin people) and the time/desire to do it - we have a few of the former (Jonathan Stout, Fabio Mittino, and Rob MacKillop come quickly to mind) and plenty of the latter here on the Archtop subforum, but offhand I can't think of anyone who possesses both credentials...

That said, if a club buy could be arranged for under $1K each w/HSC (TMK the Jumbo requires a unique size available only from Godin) I'm in - and make mine a bourbon burst...

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

We'd need an archtop-playing AGF member with both a high profile (for credibility with the Godin people) and the time/desire to do it - we have a few of the former (Jonathan Stout, Fabio Mittino, and Rob MacKillop come quickly to mind) and plenty of the latter here on the Archtop subforum, but offhand I can't think of anyone who possesses both credentials...

That said, if a club buy could be arranged for under $1K each w/HSC (TMK the Jumbo requires a unique size available only from Godin) I'm in - and make mine a bourbon burst...

It could be that you would not need a high profile player to provide more than an endorsement of the project. The AGF club profile is quite possibly enough credibility. And it's not a "threat" of the project getting out of hand. This could be presented quite truthfully as a limited run guitar, offered to subscriber club members only.

What you would need is a project co-ordinator and a small committee to run the project. Plus a way to raise the funds and correctly distance the AGF from any financial liability. Perhaps the project could sit as an AGF sponsor, with each sale generating a small sum of money to go towards the running cost of the AGF.

There are many ways to skin a cat. And if this was set up as a not for profit project (a social project) then it could be one way of doing it.

[dwalton]

Comins GCS-16-1 and GCS-16-2. $2399 new, less used. Great reviews and testimonials from some very good players, and also some learners too. 😁