Custom ordering concerns and lesson?

[colins]

Originally Posted by coopman

....Finally, something very few people pay attention to is the fret wire size -- there are at least 6 different relatively standard sizes -- and they can have a major impact on the feel and ease of play....

Really good point coopman. I like EVO frets and on a recent build I found out that there are several different dimensions possible just for this brand.

Col

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by gitarro

As a buyer of custom guitars, you are a consumer thereof.

The buyers are still entitled to the same rights of anyone who purchases a good which is to receive a good of the same condition and standard that was represented to him both expressly and impliedly.

If you are OK with receiving a custom ordered guitar with runout, that does not mean that other buyers should not be entitled to object should they receive such a guitar.

And no, I am not commenting because I have received a custom guitar with runout before. I am putting this point down as a matter of principle because I do not want to see anyone use this thread to argue that he has no duty to make good to the buyer such a guitar.

First as a Moderator I am saying that I think we have indeed covered this issue to the extent that the horse is now quite sore. PLEASE let us move beyond the dreaded 2 tone tops!!!

Now as an AGF poster, I do not know who you have worked with in the past if any, but the statement bolded there in your quote is quite inflammatory. You really think a luthier would come to this thread and say "see look, I don't need to make good to you, because look what a bunch of people say about it, I must be right. Now take this guitar and leave."

Every luthier I have worked with have gone out of their way to make me happy, provided me pictures of everything wet and dry and I was involved in all the choices. I do not care for your implication there at all.

Now Please, let us move on. If this post goes much more off the rails, I will be forced to close it.

I say talk to the luthier and GO FOR THE BUILD, and have fun doing it!!!!

[gitarro]

O

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

First as a Moderator I am saying that I think we have indeed covered this issue to the extent that the horse is now quite sore. PLEASE let us move beyond the dreaded 2 tone tops!!!

Now as an AGF poster, I do not know who you have worked with in the past if any, but the statement bolded there in your quote is quite inflammatory. You really think a luthier would come to this thread and say "see look, I don't need to make good to you, because look what a bunch of people say about it, I must be right. Now take this guitar and leave."

Every luthier I have worked with have gone out of their way to make me happy, provided me pictures of everything wet and dry and I was involved in all the choices. I do not care for your implication there at all.

Now Please, let us move on. If this post goes much more off the rails, I will be forced to close it.

I say talk to the luthier and GO FOR THE BUILD, and have fun doing it!!!!

My apologies for offending. I was arguing the contrary position to what some others were arguing to be the normative position, as they have influence in changing perceptions and ideas as to what should be normative across the board in the future. So I wanted to put forth the other position with that purpose in mind. That was all that i was trying to say in my post - evidently not articulately nor clearly enough.

As I said previously, I hv had very positive experiences with luthiers I hv ordered and received guitsrs from and no one has ever delivered me a two tone top before. I agree that most luthiers will go out of their way to make the ordering pleasant and would in fact go out of their way to ensure they r customers are satisfied. I want to make clear that i am not implying any accusation against any particular luthier. 'Nuff said.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by gitarro

O

... I was arguing the contrary position to what some others were arguing to be the normative position, as they have influence in changing perceptions and ideas as to what should be normative across the board in the future...

This is exactly my position from the other side. Contrary to your belief, I think your position is trying to create a new level of what constitutes 'normal'. If my position was nouveau then there would not now be any two-tone tops any where, especially not in the higher end.

I don't think we can ultimately agree on this, so I think it's probably best to leave this part of the discussion open-ended and steer it in a direction that may be more fruitful.

[IBKuz]

Hopefully, this repy will bare fruit for the OP. As I am currently in my second custom build, here are a couple thoughts that I would add to the other points already made.

1. Be patient.

2. Be realistic.

3. Expect the unexpected.

If you go the custom route, expect one of two things. Either you will find that this is not the right way for you to go about buying a guitar ... or ... you will be doing this multiple times. It's likely that you will not get this right the first time, as they say, practice makes perfect. As can be seen by myself and others on this section of the AGF, the experience can be very enjoyable and then you get hooked.

There are many reasons for doing a custom build, your note about wanting something for writing and recording may be better achieved going the used route. As some have noted here there is an inherent risk on a custom build as there is no guarantee sonically, that you will get the result you expected. Better in your case to know what sound you will be getting, then to have a guitar look the way you want.

[Kent Chasson]

The idea of custom guitars being a "consumer item" is interesting. By definition, a consumer item is something already made, on the shelf, ready to take home. So to get pedantic, if you commission a custom guitar, it's not a consumer item.

Not trying to be the grammar police. I bring it up because it gets back to the original question. Ordering a custom guitar is a process. The human element and the process that leads to the finished guitar is part of it and usually a positive part.

Good communication is critical but whenever humans are involved, there are opportunities for mess or magic and everything in between. Experienced builders (and clients) learn how to avoid most of the pitfalls but miscommunication and human error are going to happen eventually. As obnoxious as it is to have these same conversations over and over, it can hopefully add to everyone's vocabulary, improve communication about custom builds and help others to avoid conflict in the future.

So the reason to order a custom guitar is because, for whatever reason, you don't want a consumer item. A custom build involves some uncertainty and that's usually a good thing.

[JoeCharter]

Kent, you are correct about the definition of a consumer item. A custom guitar is not a consumer item.

That being said, at the larger sense, a consumer is someone who buys a product or a service for personal consumption/usage/enjoyment. So in that sense, people like me who commission custom guitars would be correctly defined as consumers.

Otherwise, I'd like to say that I've enjoyed the discussion in this thread. Even though we don't always agree on every topic, a passionate debate can be pleasant as long as there are no low blows and personal attacks.

As a guitar enthusiast, I think the most important part is to know yourself, what you like, what you dislike. And if it matters to you, keep an eye on the used market for resale value.

[islandguitar]

"there are opportunities for mess or magic"

Great phrase.....so true!!!

I too have enjoyed this thread....thanks to all!

[Bruce Sexauer]

Although a guitar can be destroyed through abuse no matter how well it is made, I consider it a durable good rather than a consumable item. If taken care of, it can and should last more than a human life span.

When I started building most of my customers considered guitars a long term investment in their lifestyle. Interestingly, very few of those early customers have ever sold the guitars they got from me. . . Or were unwilling to tell me. A few have been destroyed, one was chopped up by a burglar using a Samarai sword the owner had hung on the wall nearby! In more recent times (5 to 25 years ago) the typical customer has been a great deal less long term faithful.

I may be premature in saying so, but it does look to me like the trend is currently once again moving toward buy and hold, at least where my work is concerned.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

Kent, you are correct about the definition of a consumer item. A custom guitar is not a consumer item.

That being said, at the larger sense, a consumer is someone who buys a product or a service for personal consumption/usage/enjoyment. So in that sense, people like me who commission custom guitars would be correctly defined as consumers.

This goes to a point that was very important to me in my guitar making career. I would never have called any of my buyers a 'consumer.' And I did not like to call them 'customers' either. I called them 'clients.'

The reason is about professionalism. A professional distinguishes him- or herself from an ordinary seller of products or services by assuming the duty to act in the best interests of a client. That is not the arms-length, "caveat emptor" relationship of a retailer or tradesperson to a consumer of goods or services. A professional's obligation is to help a client figure out what is best for the client, and to put the client's interests ahead of the professional's own. That requires discussion of the client's goals, values, and willingness to pay for marginal improvements. It means educating the client where the client has insufficient knowledge. And putting the client first means, for example, not trying sell someone extra stuff that isn't really wanted or needed in order to make a greater profit; or referring clients to another professional who can serve them better.

Guitar making is not among the traditional professions or those defined as such by state licensing. A luthier is not bound by any law to act as a professional; it is a choice and an attitude. I see it among those builders I most respect.

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

This goes to a point that was very important to me in my guitar making career. I would never have called any of my buyers a 'consumer.' And I did not like to call them 'customers' either. I called them 'clients.'

The reason is about professionalism. A professional distinguishes him- or herself from an ordinary seller of products or services by assuming the duty to act in the best interests of a client. That is not the arms-length, "caveat emptor" relationship of a retailer or tradesperson to a consumer of goods or services. A professional's obligation is to help a client figure out what is best for the client, and to put the client's interests ahead of the professional's own. That requires discussion of the client's goals, values, and willingness to pay for marginal improvements. It means educating the client where the client has insufficient knowledge. And putting the client first means, for example, not trying sell someone extra stuff that isn't really wanted or needed in order to make a greater profit; or referring clients to another professional who can serve them better.

Guitar making is not among the traditional professions or those defined as such by state licensing. A luthier is not bound by any law to act as a professional; it is a choice and an attitude. I see it among those builders I most respect.

Welcome back, Howard.

[justonwo]

Where I’ve run into the most trouble with builds is trying to do something that is a bit out of the wheelhouse of the examples I’ve played of a particular builder’s work. Where the results have been otherworldly is when I can play many examples of their work and talk about nuanced changes of this or that. It can be hard for builders and players to speak the same “tonal language” so real world reference points are very helpful.

When I just tell a builder whose work I know well to “do their thing,” the results are fantastic. I have come to realize nothing is more critical than playing a few example’s of a builder’s work and using those examples as reference points.

When it comes to wood selection I tend to rely on a combination of the builder’s experience and my first hand experience. I’m a hard core spruce fan for tops, with adi being my favorite. For back and sides I like a pretty wide variety. The only one I almost always don’t like is ebony (the one exception a Circa I played at HGF 2011). It is always a huge plus to educate yourself by playing lots of stuff before a commission. It can be hard to find a common language for tonewood.

[ManyMartinMan]

Originally Posted by granttucker

I'm thinking about custom ordering a Charis guitar. (I use to own a pre-owned one and loved the build quality.)..

Great choice. You've already done the "used" one and now it's time for a custom order. First off, I don't think anything is out of bounds if it meets your sensibilities and desires. I would speak with the builder a few times to convey what it is you want from size, sound, esthetics, woods, inlays..... That's the person who knows their builds the best. Keep us informed on the build.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

This goes to a point that was very important to me in my guitar making career. I would never have called any of my buyers a 'consumer.' And I did not like to call them 'customers' either. I called them 'clients.'

The reason is about professionalism. A professional distinguishes him- or herself from an ordinary seller of products or services by assuming the duty to act in the best interests of a client. That is not the arms-length, "caveat emptor" relationship of a retailer or tradesperson to a consumer of goods or services. A professional's obligation is to help a client figure out what is best for the client, and to put the client's interests ahead of the professional's own. That requires discussion of the client's goals, values, and willingness to pay for marginal improvements. It means educating the client where the client has insufficient knowledge. And putting the client first means, for example, not trying sell someone extra stuff that isn't really wanted or needed in order to make a greater profit; or referring clients to another professional who can serve them better.

Guitar making is not among the traditional professions or those defined as such by state licensing. A luthier is not bound by any law to act as a professional; it is a choice and an attitude. I see it among those builders I most respect.

I'm a business owner and I have long term relationships with "clients" rather than quickies with "customers." So I do get it, Howard.

I realize the term "consumer" may have a negative connotation to some -- but in the larger sense it essentially means someone who buys a product or service for personal use. Whether people are customers of the local guitar shop or clients of a reputable luthier, at the end of the day they are still consumers as they are on the buying end of the equation.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

This goes to a point that was very important to me in my guitar making career. I would never have called any of my buyers a 'consumer.' And I did not like to call them 'customers' either. I called them 'clients.'

The reason is about professionalism. A professional distinguishes him- or herself from an ordinary seller of products or services by assuming the duty to act in the best interests of a client. That is not the arms-length, "caveat emptor" relationship of a retailer or tradesperson to a consumer of goods or services. A professional's obligation is to help a client figure out what is best for the client, and to put the client's interests ahead of the professional's own. That requires discussion of the client's goals, values, and willingness to pay for marginal improvements. It means educating the client where the client has insufficient knowledge. And putting the client first means, for example, not trying sell someone extra stuff that isn't really wanted or needed in order to make a greater profit; or referring clients to another professional who can serve them better.

Guitar making is not among the traditional professions or those defined as such by state licensing. A luthier is not bound by any law to act as a professional; it is a choice and an attitude. I see it among those builders I most respect.

I think that's well said. I think for those fortunate enough to have commissioned several bespoke instruments, they have become patrons of the craft and luthier community. And of course it's great to see guys like Mau and the others here bring the voices of these instruments out to the masses.

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

I'm a business owner and I have long term relationships with "clients" rather than quickies with "customers." So I do get it, Howard.

I realize the term "consumer" may have a negative connotation to some -- but in the larger sense it essentially means someone who buys a product or service for personal use. Whether people are customers of the local guitar shop or clients of a reputable luthier, at the end of the day they are still consumers as they are on the buying end of the equation.

Yes I suppose in the cold sense of the definition the client is a consumer. There used to be a local name-brand-clothing-outlet here called SYMS, and their corporate logo was "An educated consumer is our best customer!"