Question for guitar teachers...

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

With kids, as long as they want to keep taking lessons and they are doing what I ask during the lesson, thats good enough. More flies with honey...

Same with adults. As long as they are enjoying the lessons, I dont care if they practice or not. Its up to them. I tell them to practice and thats all I can do.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

It does help to set goals and make those clear to the students.

Yes.
It can be important to provide a structure for practice. If a student really wants to learn, but finds it hard to practise, it may not be because they're "slacking", it might be because there's just too much stuff to work through. For me, "goals" always means short-term things, things that can be accomplished (ideally) in one practice session. The goal of being a "good guitarist" can seem impossibly distant, and can spoil the simple enjoyment of doing whaever one can with a guitar.
Enjoyment is the real goal, and sometimes students can't see their way to that.
At the same time, quite often they'll have a false idea of what "playing guitar" is all about, of the rewards it can bring (especially the younger ones). Some combination of fame and improbable virtuosity that they hope will be easily achieved. If these students are put off by the amount of practice required, unable to find pleasure in just playing, then that's probably a good thing.

The best students are always those with sufficient enthusiasm for the process to be able to teach themselves if they wanted. I'm just there to maybe remove a few obstacles, suggest rewarding paths, etc.
It's not my job to make them want to learn. They're driving, I'm just the guide in the back seat.

[Mtn Man]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi MM...

I disagree.

Sometimes they are students who have too many interests, and just become overwhelmed between music, sports, school and life. When they overload, or are forced to choose, the practice often suffers in favor of home work, or workouts, etc.

I also see this among adults who are full-time working professionals who take lessons. They don't intend to be slack and in fact are very committed to the instrument, and are overcommitted to other obligations.

Some adjust, and some don't.

Been there, done that, and had to make some tough decisions so music could remain a priority. But you’re talking about time management. I was specifically addressing motivation, or the lack of. I probably wouldn’t call someone who is overloaded with commitments a slacker. I define a slacker as someone who has the time and ability to do something, but doesn’t do it because they lack motivation.

[j3ffr0]

When I was younger I was pretty hard on slackers. I pretty much told them that if they are not going to do the work, than I am not the teacher for them.

Time can make us a little wiser and a little softer. Also the perspective of having a busy career and family life now myself. I took voice lessons a couple years ago, and no student was more slack than I. I just didn't have time to practice (for real). I always showed up telling the teacher how bad I sucked because I didn't practice. She said I was being too hard on myself, and she was absolutely right.

Now when people say they didn't have time to practice, I believe them. I practice with them in the lesson. It's okay if we do the same thing as we did last week. There is no tough love, no punishment, or reprimand. This approach also puts me in a happier, lower-stress place.

In some cases with children we have to understand that everyone's idea of "value" is not the same. Some parents have heard about the benefits of music, and just want to expose their kids to opportunities and experiences. There is nothing wrong with that.

Students, whether adult or child, are busier than ever. It's not for me to establish priorities in their lives. I just do the best I can every lesson with the student (and ability level) that walk into the studio to sit with me on any given day.

[JanVigne]

I think one thing any instructor should not forget is everyone learns at their own pace but, more importantly, in their own way. When many of us took our first lessons input channels weren't so well known and we all learned from Mel Bay one page, one step and one exercise at a time. I found most instructors using Mel Bay fell into the camp of "do this my way or not at all". My first instructor was certainly like that, an old black man who had taught guitar and other instruments for decades who was convinced his lesson plans were the way to learn. He had a tremendous amount of knowledge to impart but he would only do so on the Mel Bay syllabus time table. How many potentially decent players were turned off by the "my way or the highway" approach applied to the Bay books which had nothing to do with the music we were listening to?



Today we should understand that each student has a pathway through which they will be most receptive to information and possibly yet another path which will implant information and sonic memories into the mind of that specific student. If you teach at all, how many of you teach more or less as you learned years ago? How many of you seek out new ways to present information? Always looking for more effective ways to get the message across to each individual student. When was the last time you reviewed your teaching methods and asked whether they might be made better by paying attention to what each student required rather than a blanket approach to all?

Most importantly, IMO, how much work do you apply to finding the most effective way to teach each individual student? Some students will respond best to aural stimulation while others will absorb more from visual or tactile input. Some can learn patterns while others can learn the sound of intervals. Telling a student how to practice when that is how you practiced might not be the best motivator for many students. One person might do best with fifteen to twenty minute chunks broken up into three or four sessions a day. Another student might do best with a continuous one hour practice period. Obviously one student, particularly the one not making much progress, should practice one song until they can competently run through each section of the song or exercise. If the student is struggling, do you provide tips on how to get through a tough patch? Is that advice based on how you would go about it? Or, on how you believe this specific student should best approach this specific difficulty?

I have a neighbor who just got a job as a high school physics instructor though he has never taught physics and isn't all that familiar with physics. Though he has been teaching high school for several years, his attitude seems to be, "It's only high school physics." Possibly he'll be successful, I don't know. But it sure seems to me that a one approach to all attitude isn't in the student's best interest.

With that in mind, how much do you work to throw each student's individual learning switches? And, how often do you critique your own teaching style?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by j3ffr0

...I practice with them in the lesson. It's okay if we do the same thing as we did last week. There is no tough love, no punishment, or reprimand. This approach also puts me in a happier, lower-stress place.

Hi j3ffr0...

I've often practiced with a student who didn't take/have time to practice some assignment, and it's amazing how much progress we make in just a short time. That often inspires them to learn.

It's amazing how many Ah-Ha moments have occurred while we were doing just what you suggested.

Good plan.

[Davis Webb]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

With that in mind, how much do you work to throw each student's individual learning switches? And, how often do you critique your own teaching style?

1. I use the concept IDEA. Identify, demonstrate, explain and apply. That seems to hit the switches. ie...This is the C major chord. Now lets play it a few times and practice switching from G to C. C is good for folk music and alot of pop music. Its the middle of the pitch range. So very vocal friendly for most. Now lets play a song in the key of C. I identified the chord, demonstrate how to form it, explain how to use it, and then use it in a song.

Then I might teach the C major scale showing how a 1,3,5 makes a chord. Homework is learning the C major scale, one octave this week.

My classes usually go;

a. tune guitar
b. review last weeks work, usually a scale and some new chords
c. learn 2 new chords, one new scale
d. practice a song with those chords
e. drum on guitar to learn rhythm

Critique my own teaching style? I always try to analyze how learners are doing. I do have PhD in education, so I have that advantage. But part of what I learned doing my doctorate is to always review. Its not a bad idea to ask students for suggestions, things they want to learn or ways you could help them more.

[Picking Moose]

Once I had a 7 y/old student... the most difficult, unruly and unmusical student I've ever had.
After a bunch of very frustrating lessons I suggested to his parents that perhaps guitar was not for him... or, possibly, that he was still too young and needed to "mature" a little more.
His mum said to me "but he likes coming to your lessons" to which I replied that I was not a babysitter.
With another kid (12 y/old) after repeated warnings and suggestions and change of plans to incourage him to practice, after 10 minutes into the lesson, upon realising he had not touched the instrument at all for the whole week, I packed things up and closed the lesson.

Unfortunately the risk with some of these type of students is that after a year with you they've learned nothing and this will have a bad influence on your reputation.
The very first thing I tell to a new student, regardless of age, is that I'll show them how to reach the top (hopefully) of the mountain but they will have to do the walking themselves.

[Davis Webb]

Moose, I think thats harsh.

[Picking Moose]

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

Moose, I think thats harsh.

Well yes, it is harsh, but sometimes, specially with very young students, their parents simply use me (or whatever else... be that football, dance, drama, tennis, swimming classes/courses) as a parking space for their kids.
I don't like nor I want to be part of that.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Picking Moose

Once I had a 7 y/old student... the most difficult, unruly and unmusical student I've ever had.
After a bunch of very frustrating lessons I suggested to his parents that perhaps guitar was not for him... or, possibly, that he was still too young and needed to "mature" a little more.

Was he a one-on-one?
I ask because I teach kids starting at that age, but always in groups of 3 or 4. And some can indeed be as troublesome as that. But whenever I see the troublesome ones on their own, they're fine (and also usually highly intelligent). Their problem is they like showing off and joking with their friends; and sometimes they're just bored by having to go at the slower pace their friends require; that's the only reason they kick off.
I may be lucky, but I've never had a kid who had a bad attitude in a one-on-one. I find if I'm reasonable and respectful to them, they're the same with me. It's the groups that can be hell...

Originally Posted by Picking Moose

His mum said to me "but he likes coming to your lessons" to which I replied that I was not a babysitter.

I don't think I'd have been as harsh as that. With some of the kids I teach, I don't mind if they don't want to play guitar the whole lesson, and we just chat (hopefully about music in some way). The problem is not the kids, it's parents who think their kids need to get a grade, or something, when really the kid is not that interested.
So I don't mind merely "babysitting" (the pay is good!) as long as mum or dad doesn't mind junior not actually learning very much. I can get on with pretty much any kid, if there's no pressure to get any work done.
That's when you need to impress on the parents (not the kid) that learning guitar requires dedication, enough enthusiasm for the kid to want to practise every day, without having to be reminded. If "talent" means anything, it means that kind of enthusiasm for learning. Without that, yes I'm happy to babysit the kid for half an hour, but maybe they can find a cheaper babysitter if that's all they want.

Originally Posted by Picking Moose

With another kid (12 y/old) after repeated warnings and suggestions and change of plans to incourage him to practice, after 10 minutes into the lesson, upon realising he had not touched the instrument at all for the whole week, I packed things up and closed the lesson.

I take it that was after several lessons, between which he showed no signs of practice? If so, I totally agree. I might not pack up after 10 minutes (risking issues about payment), but that would be my last lesson with him.

Originally Posted by Picking Moose

Unfortunately the risk with some of these type of students is that after a year with you they've learned nothing and this will have a bad influence on your reputation.

And so it should, if that really were the case!
Any good teacher would (as I'm sure you do) identify those kids early enough to warn both them and their parents. It's quite reasonable to give them plenty of chance to find the necessary enthusiasm - and you should be able to inspire them too. I might give it 2 or 3 months before shutting them down if - after all reasonable warnings - there's no improvement.
(I had one kid who was painfully slow to improve at the beginning. His parents didn't seem to mind the £100s they were paying me with very little to show for it, but the kid seemed to enjoy the lessons, despite showing no sign of talent or aptitude. This went on for maybe a couple of years - not zero progress, but very little. But then something happened to him - he found a reason to do it. I think he changed school and made some friends who played guitar. Suddenly guitar was COOL! Then he came on in leaps and bounds. Between lessons (so his parents said) he barely put the guitar down. I like to think the groundwork had been laid in those early years, but he changed from being one of my worst students to being one of my best.)

Originally Posted by Picking Moose

The very first thing I tell to a new student, regardless of age, is that I'll show them how to reach the top (hopefully) of the mountain but they will have to do the walking themselves.

Exactly. I call it "drive". It's a journey we're on, but they have to be in the driving seat. They put the gas in the tank. I'm just the SatNav....

But age and peer pressure have a big impact. I don't believe in musical "talent" specifically. Wanting to play guitar in the first place is often down to environment: does their dad, mum or older brother play? do their schoolfriends play? Are they big fans of some famous guitarist?
Then when they start, sticking with it can be more down to personality - having the capacity for that level of attention, on the same activity, almost every day for however many years.

My observation - with students of all ages - is that there is a kind of wake-up call, early on in the lessons. They come in thinking guitar is cool, with a real desire to learn; then they discover it's actually quite hard, and is going to take some time. That's when the goats sort themselves from the sheep... Many - maybe most - just stop coming. It turned out not to be as much fun as they were hoping; too hard, too slow. With the others, it often turns out to be even more fun: they get the bug. It becomes a new recreational activity, opening out a whole new world of experience, self-expression or self-fulfilment, that they never imagined before.

[Bern]

Originally Posted by JonPR

My observation - with students of all ages - is that there is a kind of wake-up call, early on in the lessons. They come in thinking guitar is cool, with a real desire to learn; then they discover it's actually quite hard, and is going to take some time. That's when the goats sort themselves from the sheep... Many - maybe most - just stop coming. It turned out not to be as much fun as they were hoping; too hard, too slow. With the others, it often turns out to be even more fun: they get the bug. It becomes a new recreational activity, opening out a whole new world of experience, self-expression or self-fulfilment, that they never imagined before.

I whole heartily agree, and, I've found this to be true not only in teaching guitar.

[Picking Moose]

Thank you for your lenghty answer, JonPR.
I think I agree with just about everything you wrote so, just to make it clear...

The babysitting incident was indeed a 1 to 1 lesson and in was definitely underpaid, since it started as a group of four (cheaper for them) but the boy's mum after 3 or 4 lessons asked me if I could teach the boy at (her) home. They lived right next door to the teaching room building so I didn't feel like charging the full 1-to-1 fee (my big mistake).

The "packing in" incident was again a 1 to 1 lesson with a student who's been with me for over a year.. and I did it after many many attempts to instill drive and passion into him (working at material chosen by him.. go to teach at his home.. redefine the practice sessions several times) and after several warnings, first in a friendly manner but quite seriously in the last couple of lessons.

I am a qualified school teacher so I am used teach to kids and I also did adult evening classes... I have seen all sorts of behaviour over the years and I have my principles too..
I am willing to teach you only if you're willing to learn from me, more so if you (or your parents) are paying me for a service which I must provide in the best way I can, so, if for whatever reason my teaching is weakened or made uneffective I will stop doing it.

It is not the first time I send students away because they want to learn a style I am not familiar enough to teach (shredding/metal and flamenco, for example).

I ask my students to commit themselves to it but before that I make sure I am fully committed too.