What chord is this?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

At 2 minutes and 22 seconds where he talks about going from C chord to the G chord, that you do "a walk down" in between. But my two Neil Young Guitar Books have it different.

They show that between that C chord and the G chord is a Bm and Am chord.

That's a piano arrangement. In the original, I think there's a walk down in the bass (C-B-A-G), but the chords are just two hits on C (where they have C and Bm), nothing where they have the Am (just a held C) and then the G.

So - effectively - you do have a C chord with a B bass on the "and" of beat 1.
As I mentioned earlier, this chord (very dissonant when isolated) is a common part of such walk downs, where the bass (not the guitar) moves down the scale, but the chord doesn't exactly bother to.

Whoever wrote the piano arrangement obviously decided to "clean it up", so that every 8th note chord in the rundown sounds nice and harmonious.

On solo guitar (to emulate the bass line), you could get away with this (as Neil probably did):

-0-0-(0)-3---------
-1-1-(0)-0-----------
-0-0-(0)-0-----------
-2-0-(0)-0----------
-3-2-(0-(x)-----------
---------3-------

The open D string in the 2nd chord is simply a result of moving the middle finger across to get the B bass. Not a chord you want to make too much of.
It could be all open strings on that 3rd beat, or you could just hold the top part of the previous chord (C) while playing 5th string open.

(Admittedly I haven't double-checked with the original to confirm...)

[posternutbag]

Not to nitpick, but I do not believe it can be a G suspended because there is the B tone, which is the major third of the G triad.
A suspended chord replaces the third (major or minor) with "something else," usually the 2 or the 4. A Gsus4 should be G-C-D. A Guss2 would be G-A-D.
I believe the presence of the B makes Gsus4 impossible.
A third inversion of CM7add9 is, I think, the simplest way to explain the chord, both in theory and function.

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by JonPR

That's a piano arrangement. In the original, I think there's a walk down in the bass (C-B-A-G), but the chords are just two hits on C (where they have C and Bm), nothing where they have the Am (just a held C) and then the G.

Whoever wrote the piano arrangement obviously decided to "clean it up", so that every 8th note chord in the rundown sounds nice and harmonious....

Yet they did show actual guitar chords -- the Bm and Am open chords -- above the "piano arrangement":





So it's incorrect to play those chords as shown in the above pic? (I've played it the way they show it above and and sounds nice but if it's incorrect I'll play it the way you suggest.)

Originally Posted by JonPR

On solo guitar (to emulate the bass line), you could get away with this (as Neil probably did):

-0-0-(0)-3---------
-1-1-(0)-0-----------
-0-0-(0)-0-----------
-2-0-(0)-0----------
-3-2-(0-(x)-----------
---------3-------

What chord is the zeroes? What's the name of this chord you put in parentheses above? I mean this:

(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)

[Riverwolf]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

What chord is the zero's? What's the name of this chord you put in parentheses above? I mean this:

(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)

Remember, I am a newbie (6 months this time) and I have no music training. So, this was to be my next thread as I also use this sometimes to smooth out changes and keep the rhythm going smooth. This is another that I have not known how to properly write down in my notes.

I love listening to you guys. I don't know how old any of you are but I feel as if in a room of old timers. Ha! not like I am young.
Thanks again.

[posternutbag]

This is actually a fairly nuanced question. The answer is, it could be several different chords depending on what key you are in and what you need it to be. I would call it an Em7add4 or Em7add11.

Here is the reasoning:

E shows up twice, and is the base note, so E is the most practical key to consider, although others are possible. The notes of the E major scale are:
E F# G# A B C# D#

The open strings of standard tuning are EADGBe. We need to account for each note.

E-G-B form an E minor triad (these are the 1-flat 3rd-5th). So we have some form of E minor, with some extra stuff, specifically an A and a D. D# is a note in E, specifically, the 7th, so E-G-B-D is an E minor 7th (a dominant 7th chord flattens the 7th note of the scale). The A is the only thing left, you can consider it an add 4 or add 11.

Therefore one (and I stress that this is only one of several) interpretation is Eminor7add4.

[callouses]

Originally Posted by posternutbag

Not to nitpick, but I do not believe it can be a G suspended because there is the B tone, which is the major third of the G triad.
A suspended chord replaces the third (major or minor) with "something else," usually the 2 or the 4. A Gsus4 should be G-C-D. A Guss2 would be G-A-D.
I believe the presence of the B makes Gsus4 impossible.
A third inversion of CM7add9 is, I think, the simplest way to explain the chord, both in theory and function.

Hi poster: I didn't explain myself well. I assumed a g bass note, not an e, since i presumed it was silent from a previous poster. I don't wish to belabor the point, everyone has their own outlook, and it could have several names, depending on the key sig. The b appeared on the a string, not open b. You could be right and i could be wrong, just wanted to clarify my thinking, thx.

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by Riverwolf

Remember, I am a newbie (6 months this time) and I have no music training. So, this was to be my next thread as I also use this sometimes to smooth out changes and keep the rhythm going smooth. This is another that I have not known how to properly write down in my notes.

I love listening to you guys. I don't know how old any of you are but I feel as if in a room of old timers. Ha! not like I am young.
Thanks again.

Not only do I not know what chord that is, but I also wonder why all the zeroes are in parentheses.

Can anyone tell us what chord it is and why the zeroes are in parentheses?

(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)




thanks

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

Yet they did show actual guitar chords -- the Bm and Am open chords -- above the "piano arrangement":

Yes, because they're trying to be friendly to guitarists.

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

So it's incorrect to play those chords as shown in the above pic? (I've played it the way they show it above and and sounds nice but if it's incorrect I'll play it the way you suggest.)

Well it depends what you mean by "correct".
I see three possible meanings:

1. The way it was played in the original studio version (with band including bass and/or piano).
2. The Neil Young played it solo live (if different).
3. Any way that sounds good.

(You could add a 4th, which is "how it's notated in an official published songbook", but you can't bank on a songbook adhering to any one of the above three, except - usually - the last.)

Here's the studio version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owQOxJeupt8
and two live solo performances:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh44QPT1mPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gonu45ZNHpM

In all three, there is no run-down at all!
In the studio version, the bass plays C-C-E-G (not C-B-A-G). The chord on the E bass is indistinct; in fact because the bass note itself is indistinct, going up to E from C and then down to G, the E could be the 6th string on his guitar, maybe as he strums an Em or random open strings. The bass guitar could just have left an 8th note rest.
You can hear what he's doing more clearly on the early live version: he plays the two C's, then does indeed strum random open strings as he changes to the G (2:49, 3:01 etc). In the second live version - you can see his hands too - he just leaves a gap between the C and G: C-C-x-G (1:23, 1:34, etc). So whatever "chord" was played between the 2nd C and the G, he never regarded it as important.

So if you regard any of those as "correct", then clearly the book is "incorrect" .
However it's still your choice how you play it.
I agree with you that C-Bm-Am-G sounds good. Mr Young is not going to get his lawyers on to you if you play it that way - he may even applaud your creative rearrangement (except you got it from a book of course ).

The reason the book made that "mistake" is that there are many other songs where such a run down would clearly employ descending triads like that. In others, it would just be the bass that descends. So whoever transcribed it for the book (you can bet Neil Young didn't give them the music), they probably thought "oh yeah, he's going for one of those classic rundowns; he's not quite playing it, but I see what he's getting at."
IOW, in trying to be helpful, they're turning NY's idiosyncratic "C-C-x-G" change into a more generic rundown. They're kind of saying "this is what we think he meant to play".

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

What chord is the zeroes? What's the name of this chord you put in parentheses above? I mean this:

(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)

I wouldn't bother to name it. If you insist on a name, "Em7/A" is probably the best. If you were to add the open 6th string, then "Em11" is the most concise. But - in this case anyway - it's far too insignificant to be honoured with its own name, IMO.
(BTW, the reason I put it in parentheses was precisely because it was a random passing strum as he moved his fingers to the G.)

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

Not only do I not know what chord that is, but I also wonder why all the zeroes are in parentheses.

Can anyone tell us what chord it is and why the zeroes are in parentheses?

(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)


thanks

Originally Posted by JonPR

...
I wouldn't bother to name it. If you insist on a name, "Em7/A" is probably the best. If you were to add the open 6th string, then "Em11" is the most concise. But - in this case anyway - it's far too insignificant to be honoured with its own name, IMO.
(BTW, the reason I put it in parentheses was precisely because it was a random passing strum as he moved his fingers to the G.)

i just want to point out that Em7add11 is the universal passing chord.

( i never seem to get tired of that joke)

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by mc1

i just want to point out that Em7add11 is the universal passing chord.

Absolutely. Neil is just following in the grand old tradition we all know and love.
(Even the young kids I teach enjoy composing songs with that chord alone... )

[ombudsman]

I have to say, m7add11 (with the 5th omitted from the voicing) is a very important chord in my world. It's stacked fourths; you wouldn't have early 60s Coltrane, "So What" by Miles Davis, or (allowing for some permutations of it) lots of Brian Wilson sounds (for starters) without that chord. Added 11ths are not unknown in various classic rock and alternative tunes also. I've used it in many songs.

It can also be notated as E quartal 4 or as I would write it EQ4 (root E, quartal, 4 notes).

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Yes, because they're trying to be friendly to guitarists.
Well it depends what you mean by "correct".
I see three possible meanings:

1. The way it was played in the original studio version (with band including bass and/or piano).
2. The Neil Young played it solo live (if different).
3. Any way that sounds good.

(You could add a 4th, which is "how it's notated in an official published songbook", but you can't bank on a songbook adhering to any one of the above three, except - usually - the last.)

Here's the studio version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owQOxJeupt8
and two live solo performances:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh44QPT1mPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gonu45ZNHpM

In all three, there is no run-down at all!
In the studio version, the bass plays C-C-E-G (not C-B-A-G). The chord on the E bass is indistinct; in fact because the bass note itself is indistinct, going up to E from C and then down to G, the E could be the 6th string on his guitar, maybe as he strums an Em or random open strings. The bass guitar could just have left an 8th note rest.
You can hear what he's doing more clearly on the early live version: he plays the two C's, then does indeed strum random open strings as he changes to the G (2:49, 3:01 etc). In the second live version - you can see his hands too - he just leaves a gap between the C and G: C-C-x-G (1:23, 1:34, etc). So whatever "chord" was played between the 2nd C and the G, he never regarded it as important.

So if you regard any of those as "correct", then clearly the book is "incorrect" .
However it's still your choice how you play it.
I agree with you that C-Bm-Am-G sounds good. Mr Young is not going to get his lawyers on to you if you play it that way - he may even applaud your creative rearrangement (except you got it from a book of course ).

The reason the book made that "mistake" is that there are many other songs where such a run down would clearly employ descending triads like that. In others, it would just be the bass that descends. So whoever transcribed it for the book (you can bet Neil Young didn't give them the music), they probably thought "oh yeah, he's going for one of those classic rundowns; he's not quite playing it, but I see what he's getting at."
IOW, in trying to be helpful, they're turning NY's idiosyncratic "C-C-x-G" change into a more generic rundown. They're kind of saying "this is what we think he meant to play".

I wouldn't bother to name it. If you insist on a name, "Em7/A" is probably the best. If you were to add the open 6th string, then "Em11" is the most concise. But - in this case anyway - it's far too insignificant to be honoured with its own name, IMO.
(BTW, the reason I put it in parentheses was precisely because it was a random passing strum as he moved his fingers to the G.)

WOW! Thanks for the detailed response. It seems one has options, so to speak, when learning/playing a song.

As you said, I don't think Neil would sue me for playing it the way the book shows how. Though he might just advise me, if I'm going to play badly, do it to some other artist's songs!

[Mr Fixit eh]

I find http://www.chorerator.com to be fairly reliable - go to the chord designer tool.

steve

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by ombudsman

I have to say, m7add11 (with the 5th omitted from the voicing) is a very important chord in my world. It's stacked fourths; you wouldn't have early 60s Coltrane, "So What" by Miles Davis, or (allowing for some permutations of it) lots of Brian Wilson sounds (for starters) without that chord. Added 11ths are not unknown in various classic rock and alternative tunes also. I've used it in many songs.

It can also be notated as E quartal 4 or as I would write it EQ4 (root E, quartal, 4 notes).

This is all true - and I like that symbol for a quartal chord! (Except of course the open guitar strings, or all 6 strings at any one fret, contain a major 3rd, they're not all 4ths.)

The "So What" chords (Em11-Dm11, D dorian mode) can be played like this:

-x----x--
-12---10--
-12---10--
-12---10--
-12---10--
-12---10--

Although I prefer them like this:

-7---5-
-8---6-
-7---5-
-7---5-
-7---5-
-x---x-

That's 4 stacked 4ths, but a major 3rd on top.
The top note is the 5th of the chord, which does contribute a "root" quality to the bottom note (allowing us to name them as "m11" chords). Omit that (to give a pure stack of perfect 4ths) and - I agree - the chord is usefully ambiguous, with no clear root (although nominating the bottom note makes sense).

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

WOW! Thanks for the detailed response. It seems one has options, so to speak, when learning/playing a song.

As you said, I don't think Neil would sue me for playing it the way the book shows how. Though he might just advise me, if I'm going to play badly, do it to some other artist's songs!

Mr Young has always seemed to me to be a relaxed kind of guy, open to improvisation...
He'd probably rather you did it your way than slavishly follow either him or the version in a book.