Looking for a nice set of Brazilian Kingwood

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

I had it with me at Woodstock Louie...sorry that I missed you....

Aaaargh... Well, I plan on going next year as Baker had mentioned he was taking a break after this one. So hopefully we will meet, and hopefully I'llget to meet others there too!

[Steve Kinnaird]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha,

I've made several four-piece backed guitars: BRW, MadRW & Macassar Ebony all in the interest of keeping every part of the guitar box made of quarter-sawn tonewoods. No problems. Most of my guitars travel from Hawaii to places that have indoor heating during the winter. So quarter-sawn is absolutely a MUST for me to keep them stable.

However, it kinda cracks me up, Steve Kinnaird, that you wrote above "if you can tolerate that," because you obviously can. Many, many threads here of your builds have featured fancy, plain-sliced backs - in the interest of using the striking, gorgeous woods our customers love, right? How do you keep those guitars stable year-round besides de-humidifying your shop in building them?

Just curious. BTW, I love your guitars & your design sense. You always achieve a very nice visual/design/rosette/inlay balance.

alohachris

Hey Chris, and a "Howdy" back at ya. First, thanks for the kind words, as they are most appreciated. Second, I am delighted to have brightened your day, even if unintentionally. Third, did my reply sound laced with sarcasm? Hope not. There wasn't even an intentionally oblique reference to personal feelings. Just the realization that many people cannot tolerate wood rolling off-quarter, for all the reasons stated. Is Jamie one? I don't know... So the caveat was offered because the sets pictured (@R.C.Tonewood) are partly slabbed. Though, seeing his enthusiasm over Simon Fay's sets in another thread makes me feel he can indeed "tolerate that".

Anyway, yes it is a concern. Yes, we constantly dehumidify. No, I can't change the nature of wood. But yes we do offer a warranty. As well as customer education in the proper care of a delicate system under high strain living in a hostile environment. Sort of like sending your kid off to college.

Thanks again,

Steve

[Jamiejoon]

If I could find a quartersawn set of Brazilian kingwood (or camatillo, for that matter), even a four or five piece set, I would happily buy that. Barring that, yes I can tolerate the flatsawn but gorgeous stuff that Simon found (and which Cook has more of).

Maybe I need to prowl antique stores looking for very old French furniture. I bet that once upon a time there were kingwood trees big enough to produce fully quartered sets. And most of them, sadly, went to satisfy French royalty's taste for furniture.

I know that I take a risk with a set like this, and that I will have to be careful with the guitar it eventually becomes. The only guitar I travel to different climates with has quartersawn Indian Rosewood, and I still worry about it constantly.

I love that so many knowledgeable people have posted here. As usual, I am learning a lot from you.

[Max Spohn]

Just found some here: https://shop.espen.de/en/Tonewood-Ac...&cPath=2_8_143
It is in Germany but they have the proper paperwork.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Max Spohn

Just found some here: https://shop.espen.de/en/Tonewood-Ac...&cPath=2_8_143
It is in Germany but they have the proper paperwork.

I suppose it's a geographic thing... but koa more expensive than cocobolo and kingwood?!

[Max Spohn]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

I suppose it's a geographic thing... but koa more expensive than cocobolo and kingwood?!

The prices are pretty common here in Europe. Good quality koa is hard to find here.

[Simon Fay]

Just to clarify, the terms flatsawn (or plainsawn) and quartersawn and riftsawn are terms to indicate how the log was processed on the mill. However, we also use the term quartersawn in a more casual way to reference when annual growth lines intersect the surface plain at a perpendicular angle (or close to it).

The two sets that I have were flatsawn on a mill but feature perfectly vertical 90 degree grain across most of the widths of the backs (there is about a 1.5" section on each half where the center of the tree lies). This is because my pieces were taken from the exact middle of the log while it was being plainsawn. In other words, the sets I have should be very dimensionally stable and very closely resemble a completely quartersawn set in the final product. The side sets are beautiful but the grain is not as stable - doesn't matter in my case because I use double sides with a very thin outer veneer and much thicker interior veneer.

Cook Woods had a number of other Kingwoods sets but they were from slices closer to the beginning and end of the milling process -- those sets were more indicative of what one thinks when they see the term flatsawn. I was not interested in using those other sets as I tend to dislike the visual qualities of most flatsawn surfaces. This information may help give a bit more insight in to what some of us look for when purchasing tonewood.

Many of these exotics are difficult to get in sizes large enough for guitars in the quality that most of us demand. However, as long as the grain is straight, it is possible to get beautiful looking sets by using 4 piece or more backs. Eventually, the market will have to accept that reality.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Had Simon cut the center inch or so from the set he describes in the previous thread, assuming he had an inch to burn, and then rejoined each half, he would have had the classic high end 4 piece back. Less risky where humidity cracks are concerned, but sadly more work AND up till now also commanding a lesser price in the traditional guitar market! I certainly agree in hoping that the consumer will come to see the error of their ways. The retailer also bears some responsibility here for not educating their customers regarding where the true value lays. . . Those few retailers that understand this, anyway.

[mcgr40]

I might suggest you try resawing a board such as this:

https://www.tehwoods.com/wood-shop/l...o-lumber-lmk29

And use the well-quartered portion for a 4 piece back

or this might be better:
https://www.tehwoods.com/wood-shop/l...o-lumber-lmk39

[N K Forster]

Yet another alternative, if it is the look of Kingwood you like, is to search out Kingwood veneer. You can laminate a back using whatever veneer you like. The main variable is what sort of response your maker tries to get from a back, but both "live" and "dead" backs are possible depending on the core material you use.

Here is an example of using slab sawn wenge in such a way so the stability is of little concern compared to solid wood:



And another with pommele bubinga:



This way of thinking and working will become increasingly important in the years to come as the list of woods we can't use grows. How do we get the sound we want from different materials? In both cases, I built the back and sides to give me the same sonic results as using solid rosewoods. It's more work, but it gets easier with time.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

[Bruce Sexauer]

At the risk of appearing to bicker, the previous post does not ring true for me at all, quite the opposite. Perhaps it is a joke? If so, emoticons were in order.

[Jamiejoon]

I purchased what appeared to be the best kingwood set that Cook had listed. I also inquired about special ordering some narrower pieces of quartersawn out of a log they have. I am quite optimistic about the set I ordered. I will post a photo or two when I get it. It appears similar in quality to the sets that Simon found. I am also optimistic that it will turn into a dynamite guitar, if I can keep it safely stored on blocks until I can afford to do it.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

At the risk of appearing to bicker, the previous post does not ring true for me at all, quite the opposite. Perhaps it is a joke? If so, emoticons were in order.

I think the operative word is 'built' i.e. he's not solely relying on the innate tone of the materials but modifying them to a target tone; which a luthier does anyway.

" In both cases, I built the back and sides to give me the same sonic results as using solid rosewoods. It's more work, but it gets easier with time."

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

At the risk of appearing to bicker, the previous post does not ring true for me at all, quite the opposite. Perhaps it is a joke? If so, emoticons were in order.

Well, it might not make sense to you Bruce. That doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means I'm working and thinking about instrument construction in a different way to you. Doesn't mean you're wrong and I'm right, or visa versa, it just means we're taking different approaches to one another.

If I was building more conventional, traditional work, I couldn't use this approach. But I'm not. I may not be trying to get the same reaction from the back and sides as you. Nor the top for that matter.

I've been working this way for a while now. And I'm very happy with the results. It means I can finally get over my rosewood addiction without the painful withdrawal. Just in the nick of time too.


Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

[dneal]

Originally Posted by Max Spohn

Just found some here: https://shop.espen.de/en/Tonewood-Ac...&cPath=2_8_143
It is in Germany but they have the proper paperwork.

I didn't think much of the Kingwood they had, but this set of Madagascar looks sweet.

https://shop.espen.de/en/Tonewood-Ac...piece-106.html