Help me choose: L.R. Baggs "Anthem SL" or "Lyric"

[ewernet]

Hi Guys.

First off all, iam Brazilian sorry for my English.
Help me choose the best product to me.
I want to play gigs in small restaurants, cafes, bars, partyes, etc (for just around 30 ~ 50 people). I'll buy one amplifier (probably a Fishman Loudbox or a Roland AC 60/90), in some cases i'll play through a small/portable PA's systems.
I have a Yamaha F370 guitar (http://br.yamaha.com/pt/products/mus...70/?mode=model) it's a low cost Dred guitar but i really like the sound (like the most of the guitar players, i'm dreaming with a Martin ) )
My style of playing is fingerstyle and strumming.
I studied and listened a lot (in youtube) about Anthem SL and the Lyric.
I prefer the Lyric over the Anthem SL for the given reasons:
- Ease of install (later i will get a better guitar i want to keep the L.R. Baggs system)
- More fidelity of the acoustic sound.
- $100 cheaper

If a choose the Lyric:
1) Considering the use i described, will i have problems with feedback or difficulties to properly equalization?
2) I will miss the control of relative volume of the piezo/mic
3) I will regret not having the versatility of the Anthem SL?

[RyanM1]

I vote Lyric, especially if you're playing without a full band. You might have to cut the midrange and boost the bass a bit. But I still think it sounds better than an undersaddle pickup. Just don't stand directly in front of monitors and you shouldn't have feedback.

[Vancebo]

I have had them both. Both are good choices and both will require good EQ. Feedback shouldn't be an issue if you use EQ properly. The Anthem will give you a larger bass sound. One of the Baggs techs that moderate the Baggs forum claims that the Anthem SL is his favorite system. That has to be a pretty good endorsement. I went with the Lyric because I don't like the Element undersaddle material. Too soft. I think it negatively affects the connection between the saddle and sound board.

[rschultz]

Originally Posted by RyanM1

I vote Lyric, especially if you're playing without a full band. You might have to cut the midrange and boost the bass a bit. But I still think it sounds better than an undersaddle pickup. Just don't stand directly in front of monitors and you shouldn't have feedback.

I agree. In a band the Lyric works because you've got a bass to cover the low end. If you were soloing you'd probably want the Anthem or the Lyric + something else to give you better bass response.

[$ongWriter]

I've tried to like they lyric...it's just a thin sounding pick up to my ears. Anthem all the way!!

[janmulder]

Unfortunately, I think that for you, the only way you will be able to tell which pickup you will like the most or which is best for you is to try them both somewhere. It's nice getting opinions about the two pickups from others but at the end of the day each has its fans. They are both good and they are both different ... and you might also consider the K&K mini in your list.

[alohachris]

Aloha Ewernet,

I would advise you to consider planning your whole signal chain for quality & compatibility when selecting ANY pickup system. A pickup will only function as well as the quality of controls (such as EQ) & other elements that are part of your live rig. Without very good controls & similar quality of components, you simply cannot maximize or control ANY pickup to be used in the variety of rooms you list as being where you wish to play.

For example, it's nice to to believe that you can keep it simple by running a pickup signal through something like the acoustic amps you mentioned & that's it, you're done. Unfortunately, it won't work that way at gigs. Sure, you can get sound, but it won't be a maximized sound for that room or that pickup/source.

Usually, the quality of onboard controls (like EQ) on amplifiers is not very good - certainly not as good as that found on better quality small mixers (Allen & Heath ZED series & Soundcraft EFX series for example) or that found on good quality preamp such as the DTAR Solstice or Equinox.

So you should consider that as you look at either of those Baggs pickups you're investigating, Ewernet. My experience is the same as Vancebo's above - both the Lyric & Anthem require LOTS of very good EQ to make them work in a variety of rooms. For that reason, they are not my favorite pickups as a gigger because they are so tweaked & hyped by Baggs at the factory. They are not designed to work w/ other sources either.

My preference is to gig with a planned signal chain including dual-source pickup systems (w/ at least one mic in the mix) controlled by excellent parametric EQ. Such a live signal chain gives me many more choices & lots more tone & room control in a variety of indoor & outdoor venues. It allows me to separately EQ the two sources to blend, sum & maximize them to the room I'm playing in. Adding a true, flat-response mic (unlike the Lyric) also produces a more natural acoustic sound that is more easily controlled at a gig by good EQ.

I prefer that my two sources not be tweaked significantly by the manufacturer, with a flatter response, so that I can apply EQ separately to each myself to make it work with a given venue. FWIW, I use a K&K Mini pickup/ AKG 416 hypercardioid internal mic combo in my three gigging guitars (check out that K&K, Ewernet).

Finally, always try to audition audio gear - before you buy. It's the only way to feel & hear whether a piece can work for you.

All the best with your choice & gigging, Ewernet

alohachris

[jonfields45]

I think a simple system for gigging is not the kind of advice that this forum is best at giving . As undersaddle systems go, the Active Element can sound pretty good on its own and I've heard it used very effectively (mostly because it is stock on many Gibsons). I would lean towards sweetening the Element with a microphone, the Anthem, rather than trying to equalize a single source microphone in a compromised position, the Lyric. Though I would recommend a JJB 330 (or the more expensive K&K Mini) as the most cost effective performance friendly option. I've even used a K&K Mini in a dreadnought at high volumes by not having a floor monitor pointing up at me (or rather pointed up at my guitar with me shielded behind it). Jon

[ewernet]

I know good EQ is necessary in most of the cases. As i will play in small gigs (just my voice and my guitar) i dont want to spend too much money and a want to keep it as simple and portable as possible (dont forgetting the sound qualitiy).

Here in Brazil, this kind of pickups is hard to find and test, so, i am listening to youtube reviews.

I listened this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smWDdTCKDGg
It was recorded with flat controls, and, at this point i prefer the L.R. Baggs sound.

I cant get a good EQ for now, so i will need to deal with the AMP EQ controls and maybe a buy this http://www.tc-helicon.com/products/play-acoustic/ tho help me do some EQ and effects.

[simondylan]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Ewernet,

I would advise you to consider planning your whole signal chain for quality & compatibility when selecting ANY pickup system. A pickup will only function as well as the quality of controls (such as EQ) & other elements that are part of your live rig. Without very good controls & similar quality of components, you simply cannot maximize or control ANY pickup to be used in the variety of rooms you list as being where you wish to play.

For example, it's nice to to believe that you can keep it simple by running a pickup signal through something like the acoustic amps you mentioned & that's it, you're done. Unfortunately, it won't work that way at gigs. Sure, you can get sound, but it won't be a maximized sound for that room or that pickup/source.

Usually, the quality of onboard controls (like EQ) on amplifiers is not very good - certainly not as good as that found on better quality small mixers (Allen & Heath ZED series & Soundcraft EFX series for example) or that found on good quality preamp such as the DTAR Solstice or Equinox.

So you should consider that as you look at either of those Baggs pickups you're investigating, Ewernet. My experience is the same as Vancebo's above - both the Lyric & Anthem require LOTS of very good EQ to make them work in a variety of rooms. For that reason, they are not my favorite pickups as a gigger because they are so tweaked & hyped by Baggs at the factory. They are not designed to work w/ other sources either.

My preference is to gig with a planned signal chain including dual-source pickup systems (w/ at least one mic in the mix) controlled by excellent parametric EQ. Such a live signal chain gives me many more choices & lots more tone & room control in a variety of indoor & outdoor venues. It allows me to separately EQ the two sources to blend, sum & maximize them to the room I'm playing in. Adding a true, flat-response mic (unlike the Lyric) also produces a more natural acoustic sound that is more easily controlled at a gig by good EQ.

I prefer that my two sources not be tweaked significantly by the manufacturer, with a flatter response, so that I can apply EQ separately to each myself to make it work with a given venue. FWIW, I use a K&K Mini pickup/ AKG 416 hypercardioid internal mic combo in my three gigging guitars (check out that K&K, Ewernet).

Finally, always try to audition audio gear - before you buy. It's the only way to feel & hear whether a piece can work for you.

All the best with your choice & gigging, Ewernet

alohachris

Hey alohachris. Explain what you mean by "the Baggs gear is not designed to work with other sources". Not exactly sure what your meaning is.
Also, as I've mentioned many times on this forum I use the Anthem SL in two guitars and I believe it to be the best thing I've ever used in my 20 plus years as an acoustic player. I've done the dual source, mic/pickup, combinations as well as just about everything that's come down the pike. The thing that doesn't line up for me in your statement is how the Anthem takes a lot of EQ. I don't agree or at least not in all cases. It is totally dependent on the guitar! I found that doing a Dual source system like you talk about takes 10 times more effort, more EQ, more tweaking from gig to gig. That is my personal experience anyway. For me the Anthem SL works in large outdoor venues, small indoor rooms, weddings, etc. with no additional tweaking. I'd like to know more about your set up.

[ewernet]

I Agree, the guitar is the more important factor in the equation (in my opinion, more than EQ).
Initially i was thinking of using the LYRIC, but probably i will buy a Martin DRS2 (Solid top, sides and back) with a warmer sound and a lot of bass, In that case i'll probably opt for Anthem.
The only thing that saddens me is having to waste a Fishman Sonitune system that comes with this guitar.

[janmulder]

Originally Posted by ewernet

I Agree, the guitar is the more important factor in the equation (in my opinion, more than EQ).
Initially i was thinking of using the LYRIC, but probably i will buy a Martin DRS2 (Solid top, sides and back) with a warmer sound and a lot of bass, In that case i'll probably opt for Anthem.
The only thing that saddens me is having to waste a Fishman Sonitune system that comes with this guitar.

I feel you have your heart set on either the Lyric or Anthem ... possibly from all those Youtube clips but I'd step back bit and consider what some of us are saying about the need for suitable EQ. I think you're getting a lot of good advice from folks here that have experience in what you are looking to do. In the end, you have to do what you want to do but I can't help but feel that it is at your peril.

Like many folks here, I've gone through a good few systems to find what sounds good for me and can only agree with what is being said here.

My current system is the Lyric and I've managed to make it sound really good ... but I have tried a good load of different equipment between the Lyric and amp to get there ... not to mention the fact that it has been with mostly good PAs or my AER Compact (which is is also quite good).

All in all, I couldn't have gotten here without some serious EQ ... I had some of the equipment already but if not it would have added about 500€ to the cost. I don't think you will get away from this if you get a Lyric. So you will also need to add the cost of good EQ to your costs. I think it will be the same with the Anthem unless you are very lucky with the guitar/pickup match ... but I wouldn't want to risk counting on that.

So what else is out there ... K&K Mini is much cheaper ... it might also need a lot of EQ but it is so much cheaper and you could probably get away with using a Baggs PADI as a preamp/EQ (or something similar - Im sure Larry can point you to some good solutions that don't cost too much) ... hell, you may even find the pickup sounds good without EQ but a Baggs PADI or similar between pickup and amp is usually a good thing.

If later you find you want expand the system, you can then add an internal mic. That's another advantage of going the K&K route.

However, as I said in an earlier post, you really should try to find places that stock or demo equipment ... especially complete systems. I don't know where you live in Brazil but I know in Theodoro Sampaio, Sao Paulo there are loads of music stores all next to each other ... some of them quite big allowing you to try stuff out.

Anyway, good luck with your quest.

[ewernet]

Originally Posted by Dakedi

I feel you have your heart set on either the Lyric or Anthem ... possibly from all those Youtube clips but I'd step back bit and consider what some of us are saying about the need for suitable EQ. I think you're getting a lot of good advice from folks here that have experience in what you are looking to do. In the end, you have to do what you want to do but I can't help but feel that it is at your peril.

Like many folks here, I've gone through a good few systems to find what sounds good for me and can only agree with what is being said here.

My current system is the Lyric and I've managed to make it sound really good ... but I have tried a good load of different equipment between the Lyric and amp to get there ... not to mention the fact that it has been with mostly good PAs or my AER Compact (which is is also quite good).

All in all, I couldn't have gotten here without some serious EQ ... I had some of the equipment already but if not it would have added about 500€ to the cost. I don't think you will get away from this if you get a Lyric. So you will also need to add the cost of good EQ to your costs. I think it will be the same with the Anthem unless you are very lucky with the guitar/pickup match ... but I wouldn't want to risk counting on that.

So what else is out there ... K&K Mini is much cheaper ... it might also need a lot of EQ but it is so much cheaper and you could probably get away with using a Baggs PADI as a preamp/EQ (or something similar - Im sure Larry can point you to some good solutions that don't cost too much) ... hell, you may even find the pickup sounds good without EQ but a Baggs PADI or similar between pickup and amp is usually a good thing.

If later you find you want expand the system, you can then add an internal mic. That's another advantage of going the K&K route.

However, as I said in an earlier post, you really should try to find places that stock or demo equipment ... especially complete systems. I don't know where you live in Brazil but I know in Theodoro Sampaio, Sao Paulo there are loads of music stores all next to each other ... some of them quite big allowing you to try stuff out.

Anyway, good luck with your quest.

Jan, you mean PARA DI? http://www.lrbaggs.com/preamps/para-di-acoustic-preamp
Did you think that the Play Acoustic from TC-HELICON could be a good job on EQ? http://www.tc-helicon.com/products/play-acoustic/

[janmulder]

Originally Posted by ewernet

Jan, you mean PARA DI? http://www.lrbaggs.com/preamps/para-di-acoustic-preamp
Did you think that the Play Acoustic from TC-HELICON could be a good job on EQ? http://www.tc-helicon.com/products/play-acoustic/

Yes ... The LR Baggs ParaDI is often referred to as the PADI.

I wouldn't want to comment on the tc-helicon as I don't know it. I have equipment from TC and say that it has always been high quality. However, my gut feeling is that most multi effect units have substandard EQ sections ... mainly because I have tried a good few and EQ sections are difficult and expensive to make (properly) and these units are all about streamlining ... to save the maker and you money.

The PADI, on the other hand, is a very special device dedicated to 2 things ... a DI and an EQ ... it is a high quality EQ and a high quality DI.

I now only consider dedicated units when it comes to EQ as it is one of the most difficult effects to get right ... and the PADI is in my experience the cheapest good sounding one.

It is not only the sound that is a factor to consider ... there is also the control. On the PADI you have two well chosen semi parametric EQs tuned specifically for guitars ... then there are the bass, presence and treble (again, nicely tuned for guitar).

I think on an acoustic guitar, you would be better served with a good EQ/DI rather than lots of effects. Even the feedback busting can be achieved with the PADI as this is most often just a bad resonant frequency that needs to be reduced a bit.

[ewernet]

Originally Posted by Dakedi

Yes ... The LR Baggs ParaDI is often referred to as the PADI.

I wouldn't want to comment on the tc-helicon as I don't know it. I have equipment from TC and say that it has always been high quality. However, my gut feeling is that most multi effect units have substandard EQ sections ... mainly because I have tried a good few and EQ sections are difficult and expensive to make (properly) and these units are all about streamlining ... to save the maker and you money.

The PADI, on the other hand, is a very special device dedicated to 2 things ... a DI and an EQ ... it is a high quality EQ and a high quality DI.

I now only consider dedicated units when it comes to EQ as it is one of the most difficult effects to get right ... and the PADI is in my experience the cheapest good sounding one.

It is not only the sound that is a factor to consider ... there is also the control. On the PADI you have two well chosen semi parametric EQs tuned specifically for guitars ... then there are the bass, presence and treble (again, nicely tuned for guitar).

I think on an acoustic guitar, you would be better served with a good EQ/DI rather than lots of effects. Even the feedback busting can be achieved with the PADI as this is most often just a bad resonant frequency that needs to be reduced a bit.

Wow... Gooood explanation.
So, from now, i started to consider a good EQ in my gig set and budget...