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  #16  
Old 11-27-2013, 09:24 AM
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I think simple is usually a good idea, especially when you're on stage. But dual source doesn't have to be complicated. With my usual setup, I have my guitar, with a mic+K&K, no batteries to worry about, etc, clean and simple, and then my SPS-1 end-pin module (no SPS-1). It's smaller than the red-eye, fits, complete with the cable in my gig bag pocket. Plug in, turn up the volume (at my fingertips at the end-pin jack), and play. Other than perhaps rolling off a little bass from the mic, I usually end up flat EQ-wise. Really easy and simple. The Lyric+K&K combo has been even simpler, since it usually seems to need no EQ at all for me.
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2013, 11:15 AM
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I think it is pretty clear that a great deal of this IS personal taste.
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The engineer in me can't help but to tweak one variable (in this case installing or EQ'ing a pickup) and then hear the result when I play. Yes, it's not free. But that also is part of the challenge... to be creative in making things work for a reasonable price by making certain parts myself and buying other stuff used.

Sometimes I think I should play more and tinker less... but that's just who I am.
YMMV.
Indeed, YMMV is the key thing to consider. When I say it is a matter of personal taste, I am refering not only to tone, but, to what is fun and rewarding for you when it comes to guitar.

It is clear to me that lots of guys really enjoy fooling around in search of the holy grail of tone simply for the sake of the search. And if that is what you like to do, I say, more power to you!!!!!! Have fun, that is what it is all about.

It was not my intention to call the pursuit into question, but, understanding the breadth of new members who read these post, to provide some perspective to them that one can have a really good sounding/acting rig that does not require much money or effort and will leave your audience smiling. I don't know about you guys, but, even though I get paid to gig 5 or 6 times per month, by the time you factor in the cost of my guitar and amplification rigs, I am money behind. (probably because I seem to need a new guitar every other year or so. )

So, have fun, and, good luck in your guitar pursuits no matter what they are.

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  #18  
Old 11-27-2013, 07:00 PM
simondylan simondylan is offline
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Hi,

I was one of the first to try combining the Lyric with a passive K&K Pure Mini, along with Doug Young back in the spring. But for some reason I went away from it, I had trouble blending the two and didn't think it was worth the trouble of a dual source. I thought each source sounded pretty good by itself - and they do. But recently I decided to try it again because each one lacked something... and in trying to figure out what each one lacked, I tried a lot of different pickup configurations:

1) K&K, passive
2) K&K, with Pure Preamp
3) K&K, with onboard Tri-star Preamp
4) K&K + Lyric.
5) Lyric.
6) Lyric + Blackstack mag
7) K&K + MagMic
8) K&K + Blackstack mag
9) K&K + Silver Bullet

And now I'm back to the K&K + Lyric. Why, you ask? The Lyric as a single source was too mic-y, lacked bass and the handling noises were too much - and I tried a variety of presence settings. It sounded nice but not great. Believe me, I wanted this to work and I gave it a good go. The best I could make it sound was with a Venue to really dial it in, it needs specific EQ cuts in the midrange at 300-400 Hz to tame some mud and resonances. I've tried this in 2 guitars and it needed similar EQ. It really is finicky and the Venue does the best I could find with it.

The K&K is better by itself, and in one of my guitars is really really good after some mid-cut. It may be good enough by itself in my Jaffrey. But in my Taylor jumbo the K&K is just a little too weak in the treble and really benefits from a mic. I tried the Silver Bullet and it sounded great in my basement. But the mic is fairly sensitive and there's no way it could handle stage volumes.

That's why... because the Lyric is so feedback resistant. I can play the K&K + Lyric on a loud stage and not have any feedback issues.

That said, while each one can be used as a sole source for full range sound... the best way to combine them IMO is to use the Lyric as a mic over the top. So I cut the bass all the way out and cut the mids a lot too. Then just add the Lyric to give that mic air, but not too much. The K&K is the bulk of the sound. I like to add more mic when I finger pick, and less when I strum. So I can either use the volume wheel or a pedal to adjust/mute the lyric.

It really is a great setup once you figure out how to EQ both sources... and that is the key. The K&K needs a fair bit of mid cut, but the specific frequency isn't that critical... anywhere from 300-800 usually helps. Sure, there is a sweet spot, but it's tolerable if you don't get it right. But the Lyric I find to be more critical to finding the sweet spot. It can sound both boxy and have hot notes that reverberate if you don't cut in the right spot. Having a good preamp like a PADI or Venue or something with 1 or 2 mid sweeps is a must with the Lyric IMO.
Well it sounds like you did a lot of the right stuff to make it all work, but in the end that is one expensive and confusing set-up. I know I say it a lot but I love my Anthem SL. It accomplishes what you're trying to do right out of the box pretty much for considerably less money. I do EQ it to get the best out of it but I haven't ever found anything that doesn't need some EQ. Every guitar is different. I know there is some satisfaction though in going through all of that and coming up with your own unique sound. To each his own. I did a lot of that kind of thing in the 90's but now I'm happier than ever.
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2013, 07:19 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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simondylan, I am in the process of removing the ES system from my guitar and trying out the K&K + Lyric set up. I wouldn't say that it's confusing. If you compare it to the Anthem then yes it's a little more detailed but other than wiring the K&K to the lyric end preamp, it's pretty straight forward. I am lucky because I have two jacks so I can avoid having to wire them together.

The Anthem does accomplish this same thing to an extent but it still has a UST which a lot of people (including myself) hate. I also find that with the Anthem it only sounds natural if the mic is turned up and personally the Lyric on it's own doesn't really do it for me so I would need to have more UST which brings in the quack. With the K&K + lyric set up I am hoping to put 80-90% of my sound on the K&K which is already far more natural than a UST. I just want the lyric to add a little air.
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2013, 07:19 PM
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Well it sounds like you did a lot of the right stuff to make it all work, but in the end that is one expensive and confusing set-up. I know I say it a lot but I love my Anthem SL. It accomplishes what you're trying to do right out of the box pretty much for considerably less money. I do EQ it to get the best out of it but I haven't ever found anything that doesn't need some EQ. Every guitar is different. I know there is some satisfaction though in going through all of that and coming up with your own unique sound. To each his own. I did a lot of that kind of thing in the 90's but now I'm happier than ever.
Totally different sound. The Element in the Anthem has it's own tone and characteristics, even when combined with the mic in the Anthem. Some like it, some don't
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  #21  
Old 11-27-2013, 07:28 PM
rschultz rschultz is offline
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Originally Posted by simondylan View Post
Well it sounds like you did a lot of the right stuff to make it all work, but in the end that is one expensive and confusing set-up. I know I say it a lot but I love my Anthem SL. It accomplishes what you're trying to do right out of the box pretty much for considerably less money. I do EQ it to get the best out of it but I haven't ever found anything that doesn't need some EQ. Every guitar is different. I know there is some satisfaction though in going through all of that and coming up with your own unique sound. To each his own. I did a lot of that kind of thing in the 90's but now I'm happier than ever.
To each his own. But price wise, the Lyric is $200 and the K&K is $91... The same as the full anthem, or $100 more than the SL.

For me, my tone quest started by removing the UST... And I'm never looking back.
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  #22  
Old 11-28-2013, 10:00 PM
Vancebo Vancebo is offline
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I started a thread about my venture from the dual source K&K/mic and pendulum SPS1 to the Lyric with a DTAR Equinox. The thread died quickly BTW. I get great results with this new combo. I do need to cut a lot in the 200-400hz range. I do not have to do much with the lows and highs. I find that reducing that range brightens up the rest if the guitar and it cuts through the band easily. Finger picked or strummed hard. The sound stays natural. My guitar has plenty of bass so I don't miss the punchy bass that other pickups would provide.

The Equinox is an undervalued piece of gear. It is not that spendy either. The Baggs people suggested to set the presence screw of the Lyric as low as possible so that the treble strings sound similar to the natural sound of your guitar. Then use the preamp to fine tune. My presence screw is set at 50%. The Equinox, when used properly seems to take care of most of the complaints people here seem to have about the Lyric. I agree with them too. Just wanted to share the joy.
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  #23  
Old 11-28-2013, 10:50 PM
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I started a thread about my venture from the dual source K&K/mic and pendulum SPS1 to the Lyric with a DTAR Equinox. The thread died quickly BTW. I get great results with this new combo. I do need to cut a lot in the 200-400hz range. I do not have to do much with the lows and highs. I find that reducing that range brightens up the rest if the guitar and it cuts through the band easily. Finger picked or strummed hard. The sound stays natural. My guitar has plenty of bass so I don't miss the punchy bass that other pickups would provide.

The Equinox is an undervalued piece of gear. It is not that spendy either. The Baggs people suggested to set the presence screw of the Lyric as low as possible so that the treble strings sound similar to the natural sound of your guitar. Then use the preamp to fine tune. My presence screw is set at 50%. The Equinox, when used properly seems to take care of most of the complaints people here seem to have about the Lyric. I agree with them too. Just wanted to share the joy.
So you're saying you went from a dual source K&K/mic to a single source Lyric + Equinox preamp?

The Equinox looks similar to the Venue... lots of controls. The Venue has Bass, 2 sweeping mids, presence, treble and notch. Whereas the Equinox has really 5 sweeping points, 3 with adjustable bandwidth (Q). So in a sense it is a better preamp because of the adjustable Q... but the Venue is more of a "pedal" with the boost and mute/tuner. Although for $258 new... it seems a bit spendy to me Nevertheless, if I found one for a good price, I'd consider it. Thanks for the tip.
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  #24  
Old 12-07-2013, 02:36 PM
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To those of you using the k&K with the Lyric, what preamp are you using? Most seem to agree that both sources need some EQ but there is no mention of how this is being done. The SPS-1 is the only preamp that I can think of that fits the bill. It seems to me that something like the DTAR Solstice or the Headway EB2 does not have enough EQ capability to really work well.
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  #25  
Old 12-07-2013, 03:10 PM
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To those of you using the k&K with the Lyric, what preamp are you using? Most seem to agree that both sources need some EQ but there is no mention of how this is being done. The SPS-1 is the only preamp that I can think of that fits the bill. It seems to me that something like the DTAR Solstice or the Headway EB2 does not have enough EQ capability to really work well.
Any dual source preamp would work fine for me, Solstice, Headway, etc. I have not needed extreme EQ. Flat sounds pretty good. I've used the Raven Labs PMB-I. Bass-mid-treble controls on each channel, which are more than enough (especially since they're mostly left flat!) But it probably depends on the guitar and the sound you want. I play fingerstyle, so I want a warm tone. I'm guessing that a lot of the "need massive EQ" people want a scooped no-midrange sound for strumming. I'd still think you could get that with a simple 3 band eq, just pull down the mids. But it all depends on what you need.
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  #26  
Old 12-07-2013, 03:14 PM
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Thanks Doug. That was exactly what I was hoping to hear!
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  #27  
Old 12-07-2013, 03:57 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I think simple is usually a good idea, especially when you're on stage. But dual source doesn't have to be complicated. With my usual setup, I have my guitar, with a mic+K&K, no batteries to worry about, etc, clean and simple, and then my SPS-1 end-pin module (no SPS-1). It's smaller than the red-eye, fits, complete with the cable in my gig bag pocket. Plug in, turn up the volume (at my fingertips at the end-pin jack), and play. Other than perhaps rolling off a little bass from the mic, I usually end up flat EQ-wise. Really easy and simple. The Lyric+K&K combo has been even simpler, since it usually seems to need no EQ at all for me.
So Doug,
You like this dual source better than the mic/K&K? And are you still using the SPS-1 end-pin module with the Lyric/K&K?

While I'm at it, you find this SPS-1 module works better for a dual source than something like the Solstice (and if so why)
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  #28  
Old 12-07-2013, 04:06 PM
SimplyLuo SimplyLuo is offline
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So Doug,
You like this dual source better than the mic/K&K?
I'm curious about this, too. It would be nice to not have to deal with the 9v power for mics
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  #29  
Old 12-07-2013, 04:12 PM
rschultz rschultz is offline
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Originally Posted by happy1shirt View Post
To those of you using the k&K with the Lyric, what preamp are you using? Most seem to agree that both sources need some EQ but there is no mention of how this is being done. The SPS-1 is the only preamp that I can think of that fits the bill. It seems to me that something like the DTAR Solstice or the Headway EB2 does not have enough EQ capability to really work well.
I just use the EQ on my 2 channel amp. Sometimes I add a PADI or venue in the chain, but that's just icing on the cake.
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  #30  
Old 12-07-2013, 05:08 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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So Doug,
You like this dual source better than the mic/K&K?
Undecided. They're different. Both sound good.

Quote:
And are you still using the SPS-1 end-pin module with the Lyric/K&K?

While I'm at it, you find this SPS-1 module works better for a dual source than something like the Solstice (and if so why)
yes, mostly, that or the Raven Labs PMB-1. Actually most gigs these days, I just use a mic, so I haven't had as much experience with the K&K+Lyric as I'd like yet. But nothing beats a mic, so that's fine.

The SPS-1 module is nice because it's simple. Fingertip control of volume and balance right on the guitar. Turn it down and change guitars easily, don't even have to bend over to reach some preamp or have some big box sitting beside me. Fits in a packet or a gig bag. Plenty of gain and clear sound. I don't need EQ on stage, that's the last thing I want to be fussing with - I can't really EQ from behind the PA anyway, so just let the sound guy do it out front where he can hear what the audience hears. And the module doesn't rule out anything. I can plug it into a mixer directly, I can plug it into the SPS-1 rack if I need it, I can even plug it into my Humphrey amp. Anything that has a pair of phantom powered XLR ins. I'm actually experimenting with a more complicated setup right now: UAD Apollo + computer, and I can plug the SPS-1 module into that as well.
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