Plate joiner sanding tool

[Bruce Sexauer]

I have several planes that will do the work you seek. The longest one is the easiest, the shortest the most difficult. It is not the plane that that matters most, it is the eye of the craftsman.

Sanded joinery has little or no place in guitarmaking for a number of reasons, all having to do with percentage of contact, which is a synonym for degree of integrity. Always go for the highest degree of integrity possible.

Time to visit my shop again, Brad, and bring the wood along.

[BradHall]

Well Bruce, that's an offer I can't turn down. I'll give you a call Monday to set a day that works for you. Lunch is on me.

[Howard Klepper]

You may have fallen victim to the view often expressed on a certain lutherie forum that only planes from a boutique tool maker costing around $250 are good enough. There also is a recent fetish among woodworkers for low angle, bevel up planes. It would appear to be some kind of miracle that the many generations of luthiers and woodworkers who preceded us ever managed to get a good joint with their terribly flawed tools.

Make a shooting board, find a clean pre-1960's Stanley #4 or #5 for about $35-45 on Ebay (there are several up for auction at any given time--watch for a week and you will see what they sell for), get the plane well-fettled and you will have what you need. Longer "jointer" planes are overkill and completely unnecessary and unwieldy when you use a shooting board. A #3 can make you a great joint with a shooting board. You don't even need the side of the plane to be perfectly square to its sole if you joint both halves of the top or back together.

The center joint on a guitar top really should not be sanded. I say that as someone who does not think a sanded joint is always wrong.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Sanded joinery has little or no place in guitarmaking for a number of reasons, all having to do with percentage of contact, which is a synonym for degree of integrity. Always go for the highest degree of integrity possible.

That is a big statement with no reasoning behind it, best to say I do it this way, as others are going to call you out on such statements.

Steve

[CaffeinatedOne]

By the way, the plane in my pics is a Stanley sweetheart #4. Keep the sole true and sharpen the living daylights out of the blade, use a little candle wax on the shooting board, and it will be a delight.

[CaffeinatedOne]

Originally Posted by mirwa

That is a big statement with no reasoning behind it, best to say I do it this way, as others are going to call you out on such statements. Steve

Uh, maybe not. I agree with it completely and I'm just a woodbutcher. It is common sense - if you're interested in building something that will last, and that you will want to last, then build to the highest standard you are able. That's not a controversial idea.

[BradHall]

Howard,
You are right about me believing what I've seen posted in regards to which planes are needed for a professionally joined top and back. The lure of fine tools has always drawn me in. Economics dictate I find less costly alternatives. I just finished building a thickness sander as an example. I did find an old, unused for many years, Stanley P 3 Jack plane in my assortment. I'll clean it up and give it a test drive.
Steve,
I know Bruce and his work. When I think "Master Luthier", he and his work are at the top of my list. I have seen a few of Howard's guitars and I would say he builds to the highest standards also. I believe they know what they are talking about. Kind of presumptuous of you to think someone will "call them out" for giving their well earned opinions. I think a sharp blade versus grit would win the quality contest every time.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by mirwa

That is a big statement with no reasoning behind it, best to say I do it this way, as others are going to call you out on such statements.

Steve

I believe someone at the MIMF (maybe Alan Carruth?) had done quite a few tests with sanded versus planed joints. I believe Fine Woodworking also has done tests. The old thought that sanding surfaces to give glue more "purchase" is not entirely true, mainly because that's not exactly how glue works. It is true that old veneer workers used toothed plane blades to prep surfaces before gluing, but I believe that was done more to displace any excess glue, leaving a flat surface.

There are times, however, when I would sand a joint, such as when I have problematic woods that want to tear no matter how sharp I hone my plane blade of how small I adjust the throat. I will sand the bottom of a bridge to fit it to an arched top, but will always strop it with a single-edged blade to remove the sanding marks.

If there is any benefit to sanding a glue joint, I'd like to hear it.

I should add, that a blade-cut glue joint is likely more important when using hot-hide glue, where exact fitment of parts are crucial to the strength of the joint. With modern PVA glues, epoxies, resorcinol glues, they are more tolerant on inexact joinery because of their slight gap-filling abilities, one thing that HHG is probably not the best glue for.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by BradHall

Howard,
You are right about me believing what I've seen posted in regards to which planes are needed for a professionally joined top and back. The lure of fine tools has always drawn me in. Economics dictate I find less costly alternatives. I just finished building a thickness sander as an example. I did find an old, unused for many years, Stanley P 3 Jack plane in my assortment. I'll clean it up and give it a test drive.
Steve,
I know Bruce and his work. When I think "Master Luthier", he and his work are at the top of my list. I have seen a few of Howard's guitars and I would say he builds to the highest standards also. I believe they know what they are talking about. Kind of presumptuous of you to think someone will "call them out" for giving their well earned opinions. I think a sharp blade versus grit would win the quality contest every time.

Brad, a jack plane would be fine, even perfect, for edge joining. An hour or so of work to get the plane in working order will serve you well for years to come.

[mirwa]

First - People do not need to be offended on behalf of others, seems to be a trend happening these days in general.

The original poster wants a cheap way of joining two plates together..., sandpaper = 2 dollars - planer and shooting board = 200 dollars, thats a 1:100 ratio in costs

There are many ways to get a joint nice and perfect, saying a sanded joint has no place in luthiery is just down right wrong IMO.

If that was the case, then every main stream manufacturer should close there doors, as they have no place in luthiery.

The "statement" is what I was referring too, its a bit over the top, better to say IMO better to plane a joint than sand a joint. Thats cool, thats a personal preference, just like using white glues to hide glues, we all have preferences, is one glue more superior than the other, using one glue has no place in luthiery but the other does.

Having no place in luthiery is just, well, what I was referring too.


Steve

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by mirwa

First - People do not need to be offended on behalf of others, seems to be a trend happening these days in general.

The original poster wants a cheap way of joining two plates together..., sandpaper = 2 dollars - planer and shooting board = 200 dollars, thats a 1:100 ratio in costs

There are many ways to get a joint nice and perfect, saying a sanded joint has no place in luthiery is just down right wrong IMO.

If that was the case, then every main stream manufacturer should close there doors, as they have no place in luthiery.

The "statement" is what I was referring too, its a bit over the top, better to say IMO better to plane a joint than sand a joint. Thats cool, thats a personal preference, just like using white glues to hide glues, we all have preferences, is one glue more superior than the other, using one glue has no place in luthiery but the other does.

Having no place in luthiery is just, well, what I was referring too.

Steve

Easy now, Steve... No offense taken, just pointing out facts.

No one's saying buy a $250 hand plane. I even suggested a $30 Buck Bros. plane at Home Cheap-O would work fine.

Sanding a joint is fine in cabinetry. Bruce mentioned, verbatim, that "sanding a joint has little to no use in guitarmaking for a number of reasons..." Manufacturers can sand a joint. We're not manufacturers here. Even they use a jointer to make a glue join for their top and back plates, not edge sanders.

The fact is, HHG requires a higher tolerance joint, that can only come with edge tools. Which in turn gives you a better joint, because you're now not using glue as a filler, trying to grab whatever abraded particles are left after sanding. Better fit parts with thinner glue lines gives you better integrity. Even if you used yellow glue, or whatever, you'd still have a better joint.

Again mainstream manufacturers are not luthiers, they're mainstream manufacturers. They exist to serve a certain price point and to make a profit. But even they use edge tools, albeit mechanical, to make that crucial joint.

You said, "That is a big statement with no reasoning behind it." I gave you a reasoning behind it. That's all. I took offense to that comment. We get an education here from luthiers with more experience than I have life-years. It would be nice if we can learn a bit from them instead of nitpick and find "gotcha" phrases. Heck, Bruce even offered to help Brad join that wood at his shop!

[mirwa]

Since you feel the need.

My statement was a one line response to another poster, it was not a gotcha momment, really, saids volumes that you would even make such a response.

I state what I state from doing this stuff day in and day out, like most others that do this for a living, we spend hrs every day bent over hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of guitars every week, repairing them and not screwing them up, not from scrolling the internet for wisdom that I then pass on second hand and claim to be my own.

I sand joints happily, I plane joints happily, i teach people to guitar build and how to sand and how to use planes and chisels, sanding does have a place in luthiery.

Your statement "Again mainstream manufacturers are not luthiers", wow that is so offensive to all manufacturers and the talented luthiers they have on staff.

All this from a one line response that others feel the need to be offended over. Wow.... people really need to get a life

Steve

[LouieAtienza]

edited..........

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Wow, people really need to get a life

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

You should heed your own advice.

Your right, Ill go back to doing what I have been doing for the last twenty plus years, just the work to be done today.

[Neil K Walk]

uuhhhh...okay.....

FWIW I'm just a hack who's not even halfway through his second build and stretching it out over 7 years. Making a shooting board was a simple and relatively inexpensive thing for me to do. As for the plane I ended up using, I picked it up at Home Depot of all places - with smaller planes being purchased at Harbor Freight.

Learning how to sharpen my own chisels, planes and card scrapers was a VERY valuable skill that I found not only provided good results but kept my sinuses clear; cleaning up little curls of wood is so much more enjoyable that mounds of sawdust. There's also something to be said about the smooth feeling of how a properly sharpened blade cuts through wood like a hot knife through butter.

I can't attest to which method is better but the process of using blades over sandpaper is certainly cleaner. Both involve a sort of technique and I would say that using a jig is a good idea with which ever approach you decide upon.