Folk or Folk

[Irish Pennant]

I've been a listening fan of Folk Alley, an internet broadcast. I was mentioning to my wife that there must be two distinct types of Folk music. One pronounced Folk and the other Foak. Folk music is the genre with it's roots from the late sixties and early seventies bellbottom acoustic singer song writers and Foak music is something different, it has Americana, Bluegrass, Appalachia, Southern Folk, Acoustic singer songwriter, Latin ballads, Celtic songs and other flavors I don't know how to describe.

As I said, I'm a listening fan of Folk (Foak) Alley, are there any other internet broadcast of a similar format that you can suggest?

Also, Folk or Foak, what's your definition?

[Teleman52]

for me, folk music is traditional music of whatever country your talking about. Kind of like classic rock, you cant make NEW folk songs. Folk music in america would be old time appalachian music, in ireland you have irish traditional music, Balkan music in the balkan area etc. etc.

Bob Dylan aint folk, thats a misnomer, and the music played today at "folk festivals" usually is not folk music. Nothing made in the 60s and 70s is folk music. Bluegrass is also not folk music per se, but it does include alot of folk songs in the genre

Thats just my definition, you can disagree if you want, most people do. Which is why i dont use the term anymore, it just causes confusion. I just say "traditional music"

[Shoreline Music]

I have spent many happy hours listening to Folk Alley—I had no idea Jim Blum is still broadcasting all these years later.

My other favorite radio stream is Radio Paradise. Nice mix of old and new.

Both Folk Alley and Radio Paradise have iOS apps to make streaming that much easier.

[Silly Moustache]

This thread is undoubtedly going to unleash the "Folk police" - I hate this desire for distinction.

In the UK we have a circuit of "Folk Clubs", and when I started playing and performing again in '93 i went around many looking for gigs on the naive assumption that if you were good and the audience enjoyed your stuff, they might book you. (Bless!)

In the ten years that I was unable to play ('83 to '93, I had become enamoured of American contemporary folk, i.e primarily acoustic, and specifically Texas singer songwriters like Guy Clark, Townes, Steve Earle etc.

Many times my floor spots went down really well but the organisers told me - "well it was good, and the audience really liked it - but it isn't really folk music is it? - see, we don't book country & Western acts!"

What they (the organisers thought of as country was traditional English, occasionally Scots or Irish ballads about going down the mines, fishing for herring or going off to fight Napoleon - in other words nothing that had been relevant to anyone for at least a hundred years. Also it was more acceptable to sing something read haltingly from a scrappy piece of paper and out of tune, than to sing anything modern with a well thought out guitar arrangement.

American influenced music was either "black" in which case it was blues, or "white" in which case it was Country & Western (of how I loathe these distinctions!) "Back beats ain't folk!"

There are many folk clubs around me part of the world, and a fair few whose door I shall never again darken.

That's why I, when I took over one of them renamed it an "Acoustic Music Club". I lost some so called friends because of that, and eventually got ousted from the committee that I'd formed because I wanted to allow any kind of essentially acoustic music.

Just google "folk music + definition" and see what you get!

My club is an acoustic Music club, and I don't think there are many places where you can sit in a comfy lounge bar, uninterrupted by drunks, or noisy bar flies and enjoy up to 3 hours of music from maybe six or seven performers raging from trad folk to Jazz with American songbook, old hokum, music hall; comedy stuff, modern folk, country, bluegrass, old-timey, and blues all mixed up ...all for £3 (drinks extra).

"knock knock". Uh-Oh - it's the folk police from Cecil Sharp house at the door!

[Scootch]

I think that "traditional music",
or music written to sound like traditional music,
or music that has evolved from traditional music, like folk-rock,
are all folk music.

It's a big tent.

[Bucc5207]

Originally Posted by Scootch

I think that "traditional music",
or music written to sound like traditional music,
or music that has evolved from traditional music, like folk-rock,
are all folk music.

It's a big tent.

Well said!

Does anyone in the US pronounce the L? I thought it was all 'foak' music.

[Irish Pennant]

Thanks for the replies, my intent wasn't to open up a can of troll worms. It was just to have a friendly, light weight topic. Little did I know that it would stir bad memories, feelings or anything negative, I apologize for my naivety.

I will check out Radio Paradise.

[Glennwillow]

I think each person's definition of what "folk music" is turns out to be individualized.

I think Teleman52's definition is the most accurate:

Originally Posted by Teleman52

for me, folk music is traditional music of whatever country your talking about. Kind of like classic rock, you cant make NEW folk songs. Folk music in america would be old time appalachian music, in ireland you have irish traditional music, Balkan music in the balkan area etc. etc. ... . I just say "traditional music"

But the radio broadcasts providing folk music are not providing this kind of native music. "Folk music" to the radio and to most people, I think, is singer-songwriter stuff. Today they don't play much Peter, Paul & Mary or Kingston Trio, but they play more modern stuff that sounds pretty much like those old folky performers.

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

... In the ten years that I was unable to play ('83 to '93, I had become enamoured of American contemporary folk, i.e primarily acoustic, and specifically Texas singer songwriters like Guy Clark, Townes, Steve Earle etc.

Many times my floor spots went down really well but the organisers told me - "well it was good, and the audience really liked it - but it isn't really folk music is it? - see, we don't book country & Western acts!"

What they (the organisers thought of as country was traditional English, occasionally Scots or Irish ballads about going down the mines, fishing for herring or going off to fight Napoleon - in other words nothing that had been relevant to anyone for at least a hundred years. ...

Yes, I have noticed that in England folks are pretty sensitive to the sound of American country. Just the sound of a Travis pick on an acoustic and they accuse a person of playing country music. That's happened to me, and I don't play anything that sounds like country in my mind.

I know an older fellow who was a ground floor member of the Houston Folk Club and Townes Van Zandt was a member at that time. So clearly Townes felt that he was a folky back in his early days at least.

- Glenn

[Bikewer]

Our local community radio station, KDHX FM, has for many years run a show called "Songwriter's Showcase" that is dedicated to "Progressive folk and alternative country".

They play almost anything in this vein....I have been introduced to most all my favorite musicians by listening to this particular broadcast since the early 80s. Most would fall into the "Americana" class if you simply must classify everything.

I have generally been less attracted to the traditional European "Celtic" scene, but the more modern takes on this music (think...Richard Thompson) are pretty intriguing.

We follow a band, Tuatha Dea, that is a large, family group with lots of drumming...But plenty of modern influences as well. A typical arrangement might include electric guitar and digeridoo...Sung in gaelic.

[Ramesses]

For music to appeal to me it has to feel authentic regardless of genre. The folk thing was way before my time, but I've always found it pretty tough to buy in on rich kids in manhattan playing folk music. Peter Paul and Mary and the Kingston Trio are unlistenable to me. Mostly due to personal biases and preferences.

[Inyo]

Deleted by author.

[zabdart]

Real folk music has to do with the traditional songs and melodies of a particular people living in a particular region of the world. Everyone from Brahms to Dvorak to Stravinsky to Aaron Copland made extensive use of "folk music" themes in their classical music. American folk music is a little more complicated, since many of the "traditional" songs which came out of Appalachia actually have their roots in Scotland, Ireland or Britain, while "blues" songs trace many of their melodies back to Africa and are based on the minor pentatonic scale, which goes back millennia.
Bob Dylan and the "folk revival" of Greenwich Village in the early 60s was simply based on a lot of people who rediscovered people like Leadbelly, Woody Guthrie and various old "roots" artists (like Gus Cannon) and decided to do an updated version of what they did, including writing their own songs in a folk-like idiom.

[Flying Orca]

Taj Mahal said folk music was "music made by folks", which covers a multitude of sins to be sure. I like the definition, as it makes a nice distinction between the music of "the people" (whatever people they may be) and the music of the corporations and institutions. Folk music is more about form and context than vintage. Is my jig "Tara's Hair" any less "folk music" than a jig that was composed by someone who lived three hundred years before me? I think not. YMMV.

[martingitdave]

It's either all folk music, or none of it is. ;-)

I like the big tent idea. My folk music club and like associations have a generally wide acceptance of styles. Many would venture to say that folk music is made with traditional acoustic instruments and based on an oral tradition. Though we have no definition, I would venture to say that we accept music that is produced in the "spirit" of folk traditions. Moreover, we value music that is made and shared with the community. One might even call it "secular fellowship." Though distinct, worship, gospel, and other religious music also shares this "spirit."

I believe the folk resurgence in the 60s was based as much on the strong populist messages in folk music, as it was the musical tradition.

American folk rock evolved from that roots music tradition to include new messages, new sounds and sounds borrowed from European experiments, and vice versa.

Traditional "Americana" roots music has stayed essentially the same through this entire period.

Folk music is all related, messy, emotional, political, joyful, heartbreaking, borrowed, derived, and confounded. Most of the time it defies attempts to label it.

In other words, it's beautifully human.

[dirkronk]

Originally Posted by zabdart

Everyone from Brahms to Dvorak to Stravinsky to Aaron Copland made extensive use of "folk music" themes in their classical music.

And Bartok! Don't forget Bartok! And Janacek. And Rimsky-Korsakov (plus other notable Russian composers). And plenty of others...even the divine Ludwig van (though Beethoven's folk song arrangements pale beside his original stuff and are seldom heard).

Me, I gave up trying to define "folk" or "foak" years ago, but I'll revisit my thoughts from the last time I tried. Go the academic route and you wind up being too narrow (and often pedantic or condescending) in what does and doesn't qualify as "folk" music. Certainly, traditional music is an accurate start, but I too like Taj Mahal's "music made by folks" comment. It's literal and I think it's accurate.

Try this: "popular" music is music intended for and enjoyed by the people at large (popularis) but may originate from a different source (a different geographic area...as urban vs. rural, say, or a higher skill, class or education level, or a commercial purveyor), while "folk" music is also technically "popular" music, but with tunes and lyrics that arise FROM the people themselves to express something that they individually or collectively can relate to: joy (love songs and dance tunes), sorrow or grieving (losing a loved one to death/war/whatever), frustration or anger at their lot in life (protest songs).

The language used in "folk" may be simpler or less sophisticated than its "popular" counterpart, depending on the education level of the "folks" creating it. But whether the tune and words were put together 500 years ago or yesterday makes little difference. And sometimes it doesn't matter whether you can understand the words, as long as the intensity of emotion comes through. I think that's why I love Hindu devotional songs (bhajans). I love the singing of the Bulgarian Women's Choir. I love Child ballads. I love Peruvian folk music. I love pretty much the full range of Celtic music. But I love all of these in bite-size portions; make any one style my whole diet and I'll probably rebel.

Enough for now.

Cheers,

Dirk