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  #46  
Old 04-10-2010, 05:31 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post
Well I was hoping to eventually shed the weight and size of this EMX5000-12. A small passive mixer would do better. I've never tried a powered mixer, but even if it's heavier than a passive mixer, how much of a hassle can that be? Afterall, it's not like lifting a heavy speaker on top of a stand.

Some nice reviews and comparisons on the FBT Maxx2A I've been finding. Only 27 lbs. HMmmm That's lighter than the 32lb. SX100's. and a small passive mixer at 10lbs.

The FBT's do get some good reviews, but be careful there. Find out what's required should you ever need warranty repair. Same goes for RCF and a few others. I know a guy in California, who had to ship his RCF to New Jersey for warranty repair. That can be costly, with considerable downtime.

It was the vocal articulation while still sounding smooth and natural that I admired on the SX100's.

I've often wanted to try a pair of those because of that "up-front vocal presence" those EV's have. Is there any bottom-end to those?

Another speaker that may interest you, is the WharfedalePro Titan 12. It gets fair praise on some forums, and lightweight too. Most of the guys who use them, tend to use them over subs, so I can't comment of how much bottom-end they have when used alone. They apparently can get harsh when driven hard, so that's another consideration.

Bobby1Note
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  #47  
Old 04-11-2010, 06:01 AM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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The ZX1A's had what I would call an "up front" vocal prescence. Almost un-natural.
The SX100's sound very balanced and natural when set flat. I didn't notice a "fat" bottom. Just balance. I didn't play any disco through it (although maybe I should have) (I hate rap) To be honest, I was mezmorized by the smoothness of the sound. (would not expect any ear fatigue) and how EASY it was to understand the vocals. I did a side by side with my MPro415's which is a 15 and a horn in a trapezoid design wood cabinet (59lbs) These are not bass heavy cabs. In a side by side with EV Eliminators back when I bought these, the EV's sounded fuller with more bottom end when set flat but I was buying subs and the EV's weighed a TON and were big. The MPros can handle some bass when you bump it on the board (I rarely use them alone)
The mids sounded almost harsh and un-natural compared to the smoothness of the SX100s. I was pretty amazed at how much better the vocals sounded on the SX100's and I switched back and forth quite a bit.

In the store they outclassed everything the store had and I don't remember what they were. I did go specifically to hear the Peavey PV12. Probably the best BANG for the buck around but I was more concerned about a "pleasing" sound that once I heard the SX100's I couldn't get them out of my head.

Only from memory, they could probably use a little more bottom set flat but nothing that would be a problem. What I do know is that the band I'm in uses the powered version for monitors. The owner of the system is the drummer who is also a DJ. He told me recently that he uses them alone for small dj gigs. We use Eon 15's for tops that he uses for the band and dj gigs.
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  #48  
Old 04-11-2010, 12:00 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Steve,

Thanks for that shoot-out report. I'm somewhat puzzled however in your choices for comparison.

The KV2 EX12 is undoubtedly a wonderful speaker, as are others in the KV2 line-up. Their subs are superb as well. What surprises me about your shoot-out is, that you didn't compare any other 12" tops, especially after you heard such a dramatic difference in performance, compared to 10" and 8" boxes. I believe you owe it to yourself to try out some JBL PRX 512Mi's, EV SxA360's, or the Yorkville NX55p's (which is what I own, among others). They're also considerably lighter than the 60lb KV2's you mentioned, and certainly, much more affordable. (roughly $1600.-$1800./pair.) The Yorkville's have the best "bottom-end" of those speakers I've mentioned btw.

I'm all for "lightweight" P/A gear, however, as you heard in your shootout, there is also a point of diminishing returns.

+1 on the separate mixer btw, (Allen & Heath or Soundcraft). I have several of these mixers, ranging in capability from a 16 channel A&H MixWiz2 16;2, to a Soundcraft EFX-8, to a diminutive SoundCraft Compact 4, and soon to add the A&H Zed 10FX as soon as it becomes available. The SoundCraft MFXi series, is also worth a look. (2 aux sends).

Bob
I'd like to hear more on these 3. JBL PRX 512Mi's, EV SxA360's, or the Yorkville NX55p's and what and how you use your NX55's.

The SxA360's are actually lighter than the SxA100's. Will a 2" throat horn be too much for a small intimate setting of a small coffee house? Lot's of good reviews on the 460 but may be overkill.
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  #49  
Old 04-11-2010, 02:09 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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Bob/335,

I'm just leaving, but I'll be back later. Just wanted to point out the SxA360 has a 1" throat, not 2". You're probably referring to the size of the diaphragm on their compression driver.

Soundwise, I could probably live quite happily with any of those three speakers you mentioned.

Reliabilitywize, well,,,, Yorkville has a VERY strong reputation there, which was a big factor in my purchasing decision.

Back later,,,

Bob
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  #50  
Old 04-12-2010, 12:37 AM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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Bob/335,

A while back, I listened to a pair of SxA 360's over a pair of EV SbA 760 subs. Sounded pretty good actually. Reminded me of my Yorkville NX55p's over the Yorkville LS720p subs. This was a DJ application for a wedding reception. It was a young crowd,,, 90 or so in attendance, loud dance music. Subs sounded nice and tight, and the tops were smooth/articulate. Power and volume were excellent for that crowd and venue.

I've never had a chance to A/B the Yorkies against the other speakers I mentioned, but I did compare some Peavy SP series against the JBL PRX series, and an EV SxA250. The EV and the PRX 512m outclassed the Peavy SP series in that demo, but the PRX512m was the only speaker in the PRX series that I cared for. The EV SxA250 easily outperformed the JBL PRX 515 in my opinion. In fact, the EV SxA250 was virtually tied with the PrX 512m as far as vocal clarity/intelligibility were concerned. That was surprising since the EV is a 15" box, and the 512m is of course a 12" box.
The latest version of the PRX 512M is now called the PRX 512Mi. I believe they've changed the HF horn on the newest version.

I don't use my NX55p's often, as I've done almost no playing out in the past two years, and those places I have played, have either had their own PA, or, no PA was required. My PA gear is primarily part of a "down-the-road" project which should come together in the summer of next year when I re-retire. That project involves a recording studio/practice venue among other things. (Running sound for local performers, etc) I have used the NX55p's for a local charity event I do once a year, but there's no "live" music there; just speeches, dinner music, the dance music throughout the evening, coupled with some Karaoke. There's usually about 150 people in attendance, and the joint really gets rocking once the music starts. I easily carry the room with just a pair of NX55p's (no subs). Plenty of volume/punch, and never sounds harsh or strident. Surprisingly full bottom-end for no subs. One of the NX55p's also serves as a floor-monitor for the karaoke performers. Works great for both applications (monitor/FOH).

Last edited by Bobby1note; 04-12-2010 at 12:42 AM.
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  #51  
Old 04-12-2010, 04:15 AM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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The one thing I hear over and over is the big bottom end of the NX55 and the idea of not needing a sub for most applications. Sounds like a great box for a bar band situation or an acoustic act with a bass or a full keyboard using a lot of lows. I know great piano player using a pair of mackies that would probably love those speakers. The weight factor along with not really needing that big of a bottom causes me to shy away from them.
The EV SX series went with a 65 degree spread on the horn. That seems to unusual. With everything tending towards a wider spread for the smaller, intimate setting, it doesn't seem wise to go with the EV's.

I think I need a break for a day or two.
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  #52  
Old 04-20-2010, 05:43 AM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Well I took a break for only a couple of days and ended up at another forum. I just happened to glance through the classifieds over ther. (I never do that and don't know why I did.) Two pages back was a pair a slightly used K8's for what I thought was a very good price including their little tote bags. I made the guy a lower offer and he accepted. So now I am the owner of a pair of K8's. I have yet to plug them in to hear what they sound like.

While still looking around to see how others like them, I ran across another discussion from last year and thought this may be of interest so I post it here.


04-27-2009, 11:44 AM #17
Justin from QSC
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Posts: 9 The power that is stated for the K Series amplifier (500W per channel) is RMS power, not peak. So this is an achievable long-term power output for the amplifier.

To speak to Agedhorse's questions, I can answer to some of what you have asked, but I do not have hard data. One question to easily answer is about the crossovers. Yes they are full active crossovers. The two "channels" in the amp are completely independent. They only share the powersupply. The DSP front end does all of the signal splitting and sends an independent low signal and an independent high signal.

It's true that when sustaining a high output, the limiters are involved. There are several separate limiters that all do different things. It depends on the nature of the signal, the output being driver and the gain staging of the system as a whole. With the exception of one of the limiters, they are also dynamic, so the amount of limiting is hard to exactly quanitfy.

To the spirit of the question I can say this. We aimed to deliver the highest power amplifier module in the class. We aimed to design a robust amp that actually delivered on the promise of high power. What we did not do is shortcut the amp to only meet a paper spec and then barely be able to stand up to the needs of the people who will use it. Hopefully the proof will be in the pudding for those who hear it. They should find that it gets as loud or louder than the others and does it more cleanly.

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/....php?t=2271112

Check the link to rad the rest of the discussion. It turns out that with all the processing and other things that I don't fully understand, there are some that are still skeptical of throwing around those kind of numbers.

I hope to give a review soon.
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  #53  
Old 04-20-2010, 06:44 AM
digirira digirira is offline
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this thread is great. thanks for all the reviews guys

any opinions on Wharfedale Titan Powered 8 [12.54lbs] [12.1 lbs for passive]
http://www.wharfedalepro.com/Home/Pr...9/Default.aspx

or the Tannoy V8? [23.1lbs] [18lb for passive version]
http://tannoy.com/ProSummary.aspx#&&...QDMFp8J3H5bLVl

maybe even a V6? [18.7lb] [14.30lbs for passive]


I really hope the Wharfedale sounds good! it weights less than a AER Alpha (6" speaker)
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  #54  
Old 04-20-2010, 01:48 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post
The one thing I hear over and over is the big bottom end of the NX55 and the idea of not needing a sub for most applications. Sounds like a great box for a bar band situation or an acoustic act with a bass or a full keyboard using a lot of lows.
BoB/335,

I may have given you the wrong impression of the NX55p's "bottom-end". Yes, it is pronounced, but certainly not the same as using a subwoofwer.

In a rock band scenario, where you'd want a lot of "thump" for the kick-drum, and you're running bass thru the P/A, you would indeed need a sub, especially if you're playing at a fairly high sound-pressure level. For an all acoustic-guitar/vocals act, I'm sure anyone would be more than happy with the NX55p's alone.
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  #55  
Old 04-20-2010, 01:58 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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BoB/335,

I may have given you the wrong impression of the NX55p's "bottom-end". Yes, it is pronounced, but certainly not the same as using a subwoofwer.

In a rock band scenario, where you'd want a lot of "thump" for the kick-drum, and you're running bass thru the P/A, you would indeed need a sub, especially if you're playing at a fairly high sound-pressure level. For an all acoustic-guitar/vocals act, I'm sure anyone would be more than happy with the NX55p's alone.
I don't know how you came up with that. It was the 42 lbs that swayed me away from them. I would love a big bottom and will have to see how these K8's fair. Surely not in the same category. I was leaning to the FBT's for weight and a supposedly good low end. I didn't think I should pass up these K8's.
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  #56  
Old 04-23-2010, 11:58 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Powered Speakers
While the earlier mini-columns are all somewhate similar in price and and weight, powered speakers vary greatly in size, weight, and price. They go from budget Behringer stuff under $200 up to ultra high end speakers by Kv2 Audio, Meyer Sound, Nexo, and the EAW NT series that can run $2,000 to $3,000 apiece. When done right, a good powered speaker sounds terrific. They are usually bi-amped, with separate amplifiers matched to both the woofer and the compression driver. The good ones use carefully designed electronic crossovers, EQ, and digital processing to get the fullest and most accurate sound possible for their size, weight and price.

Which ones make good sense for guitar players and singer songwriters? A good place to start is with some of the 10 inch speakers. The 10 inch woofer versions generally go low enough for bass, while still staying fairly compact and light weight. All else being equal, a smaller 8 inch or 10 inch speaker will do better in the critical crossover range (very important for vocals) than a big 15 inch two way speaker. The 15 inch speaker is better suited for the bass thump of pop music and wedding DJ’s, but is not a good choice for most acoustic musicians, even apart from size/weight considerations.

Recent Shootout Impressions:

Kv2 EX-12

At 60 lb and $2,400, this is my reference for just how good things can sound. As you’d expect at this price, the sound is very clean, detailed yet smooth. Nothing harsh, even at high volumes, and yet every nuance of tone and texture is there... truly like high end studio monitors, only in a PA speaker. These are my first choice if I’ve got a show in a larger 400-600 seat theater, church or hall. The cabinet is baltic birch, which helps with the sound, but also contributes to the weight. The interesting question is how close smaller, lighter and cheaper speakers can get to this level of sound for smaller shows.

FBT Maxx 2A (10 inch)
At 27 lb and around $750, this is an excellent all around choice for either main PA speakers, or as floor monitors. The sound is warm, not harsh, with plenty of low end and midrange detail. Sound quality at medium to moderately high volumes is surprisingly close to my reference Kv2 EX-12 speakers. The FBT Maxx 2A just won’t go as loud or as low. Other lightweight 10 inch speakers to consider in this price range are those made by RCF, who used to make the early Mackie speakers. Recent Mackie speakers have been dissappointing by comparison, as have been the JBL Eon series.

Electro Voice ZX1A (8 inch)
At only 19 lbs and around $450, this new 8 inch speaker got my hopes up. It’s wonderfully light and compact. The sound is extremely open, clear, bordering on hyped on the high end. EV claims the speaker is only 3 dB down at 60 Hz. If true, this would be a great achievment. But in two different batches I tested, the bass really fell off dramatically below 100 Hz. Vocals sounded clear and open; a good guitar sounds clear but thin on the bottom. Ukulele would probably do great. Overall this speaker strikes me as a good bet for a floor vocal monitor, but not the best choice for main speakers, even for small shows, unless run with a sub. Note: the earliest batch of these have a recall out from EV due to concerns about a possible electrical gounding fault. This is a safety issue. If you buy a pair, make sure yours have been fixed or weren’t in the affected run.

QSC K8 (8 inch)
At 28 lbs and around $650, this is the smallest and lightest in the recent QSC K series. The larger K10 is also a strong contender, if you don’t mind the extra weight and expense in exchange for a little more low end and throw. These speakers are smooth sounding, very clean, and very powerful. Not quite as much mid range detail as the FBT Maxx 2A, but a very nice, open sound. Their dispersion patterns are unique amidst the other speakers, which will be a plus for some users and a minus for others. The K8 has an very wide, conical dispersion. For a small show, say in a library, or small coffehouse, I can use a single one of these up on a speaker stand, angled slightly downward, a little behind me and just off to the side, kind of the way most folks use the “mini line array” products. No feedback problems at moderate volume, and beautiful sound quality for me and the audience. If it was a choice between one of the “mini line array” columns behind me or one of the K8 speakers, the K8 would win hands down. In a pinch, you can even run a vocal mic and a guitar directly through these, and "mix" them together in the speaker itself, but without any EQ or effects. As with the mini columns, I'd sure prefer a real mixer. But for a minimalist application, a number of these powered speakers are virtually plug-n-play.

For larger shows it’s necessary to put up two speakers, one a bit to either side. The wide dispersion still allows me to hear plenty of what’s going on, without bothering with a separate monitor. The downside of wide dispersion is if you’re playing to a large group in a deep hall or 400 seat theater, the sound won’t “throw” as far as with larger tighter dispersion speakers. But if you’re getting up to 400 person shows, it’s time for bigger main speakers and/or a powered sub, and monitors as well.

FBT Jolly 8BA (8 inch)
At 19 lb and around $450, these are similar in size, price and weight to the EV ZX1A speakers, but totally different in sound. These are much warmer sounding, though not as clear and open. They have a bit more low end response than the EV’s. Overall I like them better than the EV for something like piano, guitar or fiddle, though I like vocals better on the EV’s. If the budget were limited to around $400 per speaker, these might be my first choice in a compact 8 inch speaker. But if the budget allowed more, then the QSC K8 would be my next option. Note: the Jolly 8BA also works well as a floor monitor, in constrast to the K8 which isn’t angled properly for floor monitor use.

Conclusions
So... after all the listening, which speakers am I taking with me for the 20 show extravaganza in Illinois next month? If someone else with a good back were setting up sound for me, it would be the Kv2 EX-12 speakers. Or if I were only settting up one show each day, I’d probably go with the FBT Maxx 2A speakers and something like the EV or Jolly as a floor monitor. But for setting up and breaking down two shows a day, I’m actually going with the QSC K8 speakers. For me, their smaller size wins out, combined with not having to set up a monitor speaker at each show.

In the end, any speaker decision comes down to how you’re going to use it, and which tradeoffs matter most to you in terms of weight, size, price, and simplicity. If possible, rent or borrow several different systems and work with them in different spaces. A quick "audition" in a noisy Guitar Center store doesn't tell you much, and the sales kids usually lack the time (and experience) to try and understand your specific needs and application. Talk to folks you trust, but develop your own ears and knowledge.

If you're just starting out with an inexpensive guitar and playing a couple open mics, don't go nuts on your first sound system. But if you really care about your sound, you've searched long and hard for the perfect sounding guitar, and it's your career, then know that everything in the signal chain affects the final sound heard by you and the audience. Microphones, pickups, cables, speakers... don’t forget a good mixer!

Good luck and keep playing!
Steve Schuch

Well, my mixer was shipped today and soon I will give these K8's a try. I will try to make some time tomorrow to crank one up. (I was waiting for the board)

I like this "review" better than another I just read. I bounced back and forth quite a few times between these and the EV ZXA1 and the K8's were certainly much smoother both with recorded music as well as with a guitar (not mine) and a mic plugged in while at the store. My guess is that a 12" speaker than weighs 20lbs more is going to sound significantly "bigger".

Just hope I'm not disappointed but for the price I got them at I don't think I could lose if I re-sell them.
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