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#1
02-20-2013, 10:23 PM
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Stefan Grossman's Curriculum
Hello, everyone. I'm new to the AGF. Having read several threads here, I gathered that some of you are following Stefan Grossman's recommended curriculum for blues fingerpicking. I myself am on the same path. I find working through his videos very satisfying, but at the same time I can't help thinking I'm missing out on something, most notably music theory, the understanding of "why." Stefan's approach seems to be song-centric. I've compared his lessons with those offered by other companies, and their approach all start with the basics: picking patterns, rhythm, etc., then various chord progressions, then finally songs. Is Stefan saying if you get enough songs under your belt, you will intrinsically "get" the progressions, the picking patterns? Another way of phrasing my question is: What are you guys doing to supplement his video lessons?
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#2
02-21-2013, 03:45 AM
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I'm not taking his lessons, but I taught myself fingerpicking much the same way: by finding a tune I wanted to play, transcribing it and steadily working through it. Then moving on to another one... Among my "lessons" in those days were tunes from Stefan's own albums, such as Dallas Rag and Delia (Aunt Molly's Murray Farm 1968). No videos, just a 2-speed tape deck and hours of application...  (thanks Stefan  )I say no assistance from video, but I did go and watch him play a few times in the late 60s. At no point, however, did I think of shouting "hey Stefan, could you play that bit again, only slower?"  It had to be back home to the tape deck...
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
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#3
02-21-2013, 05:47 AM
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Stefan's stuff is great, but apparently isn't providing you with some of what you are looking for in an up-front way.
You might want to try HomeSpun or invest in a few SKYPE lessons with a professional musician who will give you the understanding you are looking for. Understanding theory will help you with confidence, allow you to experiment and play what you feel more, and make you overall a better musician. Nothing like a good theory base to help you blossom. And good for you for following a curriculum to improve!
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#4
02-21-2013, 05:50 AM
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You may want to look into a 2 DVD set that Happy Traum put out on Homespun Tapes called 'Basic Theory That Every Guitarist Should Know' if you're looking for some of the answers as to 'why' musical things work.
In my opinion learning things like chord theory, chord inversions, scales, transposing, chord progressions, major and minor keys... etc... will help you immensely, especially with the Country Blues. The next step be then be applying the theory to all those songs you've learned. My advice would be to do this one step at a time. For example.. once you've learned how (and WHY) chord inversions work you can add some new chords to the songs you're already playing. This small but powerful step will add an entirely new dimension to your playing.
__________________
Fingerpicking Acoustic Blues/Rag/Folk/Slide Lessons https://www.tobywalkerslessons.com/
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#5
02-21-2013, 06:34 AM
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Toby, I am also a guy who is 'theory challenged'. And like the OP, it is indeed frustrating and I'd like to have enough theory under my belt to make me a better player.
I know you give lessons and do the SKYPE thing as well as being a full-time musician. Would you be able to do a two or three session thing to help me out with this stuff as well, or am I asking too much? I'm not much of a DVD guy as a rule, as the DVD refuses to answer all of my pretty basic questions and can't see what I'm having trouble with.
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#6
02-21-2013, 06:51 AM
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__________________
Fingerpicking Acoustic Blues/Rag/Folk/Slide Lessons https://www.tobywalkerslessons.com/
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#7
02-21-2013, 09:56 AM
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I'm one of those doing Stefan Grossman's learning process. i'm on the second set of songs right now, Fingerpicking Country Blues Guitar. Learning those songs for me is more about building repertoire and fingerpicking technique. It's just fun stuff to play and i'm looking forward to taking on more complicated blues and ragtime pieces.
to answer your question, to supplement in order to become a more complete guitar player, i'm also (slowly) working through Frank Vignola's Modern Method for Guitar on truefire.com (http://truefire.com/techniques-guita...modern-method/) To be honest, most days i only have about 30 minutes a day to play and i end up focusing more on Grossman's stuff because it's more fun to play. I also recognize that i have the rest of my life to be a "more complete" guitar player so there's no rush to learn everything right now.
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#8
02-21-2013, 12:12 PM
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do any of us have enough grammer under our belts to make us a better speaker? I don't discount the value of grammer or music theory. I just recognize that there is no substitute for playing with other folks - musical dialog and such.
Now folks like Toby (at least I think this is true) are solo performers. That may require a different set of tools and some theory to make the arrangements interesting. That said a public speaker must rely on what works, just like a soloist. How do you determine what works? Getting out there and playing. I know all sorts of music theory. It has almost no affect on my approach to playing guitar or mandolin, however. Maybe that day will come. Don't know. . . f-d
__________________
'30 L-1, '73 FG-180, '98 914-C, '06 000-15S, '08 000-28NB, '11 GA3-12, '14 OM28A
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#9
02-21-2013, 12:47 PM
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First - are you the infamous "Fatt Dad" from the Mandolin Cafe? I've enjoyed your posts there for years. Maybe you just need to hook-up with the right instructor to show you how to apply the theory you know to music? I don't know. But I've often heard it said that their is a difference between application and theory. Just a thought.
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#10
02-21-2013, 01:20 PM
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Right now I have signed up for too many 'inputs'. That's not too hard to do first thing in the morning about 5 am with the 'net open for biz 366/24/7, jumping from one referral to another going deeper and deeper and finding out apparently 18 hours later, that the GF has been in bed for an hour, before you surface.
Among those lessons are the classical, blues, pop, and bossa. WAaaay too much information. I've had to curtail my singups as I have an e-mail box full to brimming every day of 'deals' from Marty Schwarz, Stefan Grossman's motley crew, Griff Hamlin, Happy Traum, Claude Johnson, and from the grave, Lightnin' Hopkins, Blind Blake, MJH, Mr. R. Johnson, Howlin Wolf (Chester, to you), and a dozen others, not to mention Guitar Tab services like Ultimate Guitar. I think it's possible that there can be too many that we wish to learn from and wind up learning very little unless we spend 8 hours a day practicing, (and I'm not gonna get into that again.).
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#11
02-22-2013, 12:56 AM
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Thanks for all the thoughtful advice. Much appreciated. I'll look into Modern Method for Guitar, and am very interested in Happy Traum's two-DVD set. I read the product description at Homespun, and it's exactly what I've been looking for. The lesson culminates in improvisation and arrangement, which to me are the marks of a true guitarist, because having those skills means you've internalized how scales and chords and harmony work. As someone who's been at it for 3.5 years, I hesitate to call myself a guitarist. The problem with trying to learn on your own is that you have to chart your own course, and you are racked with constant self-doubt: am I headed in the right direction? How come this guy on the forum who's been playing for six months can already improvise? How come that novice from another forum knows all these exotic "Greek" scales? Or how come this guy who's new to guitar can already review gear and discuss tone? I'm so behind!
Hopefully, in a few more years I can say goodbye to the feeling of inadequacy and insecurity and finally consider myself a guitarist. Lastly, I'm very curious about what Toby has to say about Fatt-Dad's remark that theory benefits just solo performers. It seems to me that most fingerpickers are indeed solo players. Are we destined to play alone? Or should we also work on being able to play in a group setting? Last edited by Fuzzy125; 02-22-2013 at 12:59 AM. Reason: Clarity
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#12
02-22-2013, 05:28 AM
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Maybe these "novices" are lying, or being disingenuous? (It's common to use false modesty to brag, by downplaying one's experience or knowledge.) Who cares anyway? Your focus should be the next tune you want to play. Or maybe some theoretical concept you want to understand (although lack of theory needn't hold you back). Listen; copy; practise techniques - always focussed on music you enjoy. Nothing else is really necessary, although curiosity in other directions is good. (You never know where you might discover other music to enjoy.) Quote:
- but that's your business.Thinking you're "good" yourself means enjoying what you play. Thinking someone else is "good" means enjoying what they play. Advanced technical skill needn't be a factor in either case. It makes no sense to have some future goal of being "good", of reaching some kind of end point where the struggle will cease. Progress is constant, throughout your life. (The only end point is death - no more struggle, for sure, but we don't wish for that too soon.)So your goals should be short-term ones: get this piece finished and working. Maybe even: get this measure finished and working. Then pat yourself on the back and tackle the next measure... Quote:
OTOH, for a solo player to just strum (especially if they weren't singing) would get boring pretty quickly. And single-string solos would have nothing to back them up. Hence the development of both fancy flatpicking, and folk and blues fingerstyle. But with amplification - and sensitive, restrained backing musicians - fingerstyle works fine in a group setting. BTW, back on Stefan Grossman, do you know he has his own site and forum? http://stefangrossmansguitarworkshop.yuku.com/forums/1 You could ask questions of him yourself there, or at least get informed tips on his methods.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
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#13
02-22-2013, 08:05 AM
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Taking it further, I also believe that many guitarists want to - as you do - improve and build on what they already have learned. That last step takes a lifetime... thank goodness. It is the journey that's most important. Quote:
In my opinion theory benefits ALL musicians, and specifically guitarists, regardless of whether they play solo or in a band. I've applied just as much of my theoretical training when I played in bands as I do as a solo performer. Ask any jazz guitarist this and they'll tell you the same thing. During my years of playing in blues, country, old timey and rock bands my knowledge of theory and how to apply that theory resulted in landing me LOT'S of work. Knowing WHAT to play and HOW it works separates you from the pack... BIG TIME. As a solo player I agree that you have to become as diversified as possible in order to maintain not only your own interest but that of your audience. Knowing that fingerboard as well as you know your own neighborhood will result in getting to where you want to go in a variety of interesting and exciting ways. I do disagree with JonPR - to a point - when he says that "for a solo player to just strum (especially if they weren't singing) would get boring pretty quickly." Even if you weren't a fingerstyle player you could add tons of diversity when playing rhythm in your songs by adding a variety of chord inversions and bass runs. Ask any bluegrass or celtic back up guitarist this and they'll tell you exactly the same thing. Additionally, you don't need a band to play behind in order to be interesting if you're not a 'fingerstyle player.' Listen to some of Norman Blakes work as he strums and adds interesting bass runs to his songs. A very minimum amount of theory goes a LONG way there. Check out some of Freddie Greens work when he did nothing but strum 4 to the bar rhythms in the Count Basie Band. Yes, he may have been in a band setting but I'll bet if he sang and played as a soloist using all the chords he knew he'd easily keep any song from getting stale. I also agree with Jackknife when he talks about basically how easy it can be with overloading yourself with too much information. In my opinion it's extremely beneficial to take things a step at a time and most importantly enjoy the process as you go. I've done just that for my entire career and so far, knock on the guitar, it's worked.
__________________
Fingerpicking Acoustic Blues/Rag/Folk/Slide Lessons https://www.tobywalkerslessons.com/ Last edited by Toby Walker; 02-22-2013 at 08:29 AM.
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#14
02-22-2013, 08:54 AM
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Thanks to John PR for pumping me up! And I’ve bookmarked Stefan’s forum page. No doubt, I’m enjoying the journey. I know there’s no end to the search for perfection, and that’s exactly why I love it. Two of the smartest choices I’ve made in life: marrying my wife at 30 and picking up the guitar at 35—in both instances, I said to myself, if I don’t do it now, I’ll never.
Man, when I’m having a good guitar day, when everything goes well during a practice session, I feel like I’m floating down the hallway. Total elation. One time a coworker asked me when I’ll be done with the guitar, because she thought the guitar was my response to an early midlife crisis. I replied: When I die or get severe arthritis in my fingers. Again, thanks, guys. One measure at a time. One song at a time. One day at a time. Jeff
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#15
02-22-2013, 09:24 AM
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Sometimes a "midlife crisis" is just a growing awareness of something missing from your life... That thing could well be music, which makes you complete, which (for one reason or another) you simply passed by before. IMO, playing music (or singing) is something anyone can benefit from. It's part of what makes us human. Like sport, you don't have to be of professional standard to get enjoyment out of taking part. No special talent is required (unless perhaps you want to reach the celebrity stratosphere). Unfortunately, some people think there is, and they miss out big time. (It's OK to try it and not like it. But to avoid trying it because you feel "untalented" is silly.)
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
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