Tonerite- 1st go 814ceDLX impressions/questions

[vindibona1]

My friend brought his Toneright to our gig Friday night to lend me. I immediately put it on my 814ceDLX on full blast for 72 hrs. The guitar was suspended on it's usual wall hanger, so no special accomodations were needed in that regard. FWIW, the strings were one week old Straight Up Strings medium tension, one gig played.

After 72 hours, I took it off the wall and tried it. My initial impression was not the best. It sound bright and a bit out of balance. I had to wonder if it was my ears at the end of the day. I didn't want to fully judge right away. I wasn't sure what to do, but know I wasn't going to do anything right then. With little logical reason I put the Tonerite back on overnight at medium speed.

The following morning I tried playing again. It didn't sound to my ears as overly bright as I perceived it the previous evening. I *think* the process deadened the bass strings as when compared to the same strings (similar age) on my 614ce didn't have that same distinct ring nor the projection as the 614. But wouldn't the upper strings go dead first?

And so I'm thinking... If the vibration of the Toneright loosens up the fibers, wouldn't additional "playing it in" at that moment help??? And perhaps it did. Initially I was disappointed with the sound after the process. What did I do, I thought to myself?

So I have been playing this guitar for two days now after initial Toneriting. It *seems* (perception is a curious thing, isn't it?) that much of the bass projection has reestablished itself. Not much change in the upper tones. I'm very tempted to change the strings, just to see how the guitar responds with fresh strings. Next gig is in two days. I have to do that by tomorrow if I'm going to do it at all.

The one thing that I appear to be hearing is there is increased sustain. This guitar sustains forever. I wish I had a "base reading" so I could know objectively if there was any improvement. It already had very good sustain, but I wasn't listening for duration or decay before Toneriting. As I started playing around, I listened for sustain and anything else I could hear. But the curious thing that I began hearing was a return of the bass tones that I thought were lost or due to deadened strings. Again, the upper strings seemed initially to get brighter rather than sounded dead as others I've spoken to have reported.

So, for the sake of argument I'll stipulate that the Tonerite will "open up" a guitar (still not sure what that means), my main question might be:

After using the Tonerite, has anyone else experienced any changes from just "playing it in" afterwards? Logic might have it that the Tonerite prepares the guitar for it's own voicing that must be played in subsequently? I was surprised that after playing it in some, some of my initial observations were no longer present and that the guitar's sound morphed (again?) after playing some.

Any thoughts about my comments or your own observations?

[tomiv9]

You have to change the strings. Any observations are pointless till you change the strings.

[Purfle Haze]

Originally Posted by tomiv9

You have to change the strings. Any observations are pointless till you change the strings.

But won't that make the guitar sound…better?

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Purfle Haze

But won't that make the guitar sound…better?

Yes, and you would also be relying on nothing more reliable than your memory for the tone as it was. I don't trust my memory that well. I can remember a sound just fine, but its finer qualities and subtleties in relation to the present, not so much.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by tomiv9

You have to change the strings. Any observations are pointless till you change the strings.

Originally Posted by Purfle Haze

But won't that make the guitar sound…better?

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Yes, and you would also be relying on nothing more reliable than your memory for the tone as it was. I don't trust my memory that well. I can remember a sound just fine, but its finer qualities and subtleties in relation to the present, not so much.

All points well taken. While it is true that at this point I am largely depending on my memory, I do have some reference recordings that I can use to at least get a semblance of a comparison. That all depends on how precisely I can duplicate my recording protocol. It should be that difficult. My set up is pretty simple and I've been working on refining it and standardizing the processs.

Yeah... It sounds good but I should really change the strings. By Friday the strings should be broken in enough to get a relative idea of how the Tonerite did it's job.

Thanks for your input.

Edit 1: New Straight Up Strings medium now installed. I beat on it for awhile after multiple stretches/retunings. I know it's going to be a little bright for a day or so, so I can't attempt to make a comparison. But I can tell you that it sounds darn good.

My thinking on the Tonerite process was the Adirondack bracing that the DLX could use a little help breaking in. The brand new strings are offering a nice deep bass, balanced with the rest of the instrument. The overtones on the upper strings are lingering right now, but I expect by tomorrow they'll simmer down.

As a side note, I'm really becoming attached to this instrument. 5 weeks ago I was on the fence of whether to keep it or send it back. Part of the bonding process was finding strings that are a great match for this guitar. I tried 5 different sets of Elixirs and all were ok but they just made it an ok sounding guitar; at least in terms of it's sonic potential.

I'll know more in two day. Hopefully I'll be able to discern or at least experience a difference after the initial Tonerite process.

[Tico]

Yup, an abundance of variables, the unreliability of memory, and the power of psychoacoustics, not to mention definition of terms and personal preferences/biases, prevent proof of Tonerits's efficacy.

A truly scientific test of the Tonerite would be cool.

I think it would be fun to design the perfect comparison test.
Since nobody is going to pay for this it's all hypothetical, but I'll start.

New identical strings before and after TR treatment.
We'd need before and after recordings of the guitar.
Recordings must be in the same room, guitar in the same position, high-end flat reference microphone.

People are going to have a cow but another uncontrollable variable must be removed, the human player.
To get two completely identical performances a machine must pluck the strings in a precisely way every time.

Recordings should be played back on high end audio gear for many test subjects.
Listeners must not be told which recording is which, only A and B.
The person administering the test must also not know which is which, IOW a double blind test.
The listener questionnaire must be carefully worded to not introduce bias.

Put the audio into a spectrum analyzer.
That shows the frequency and amplitude of the fundamental and every harmonic at one instant.
One capture would be at the peak of the initial attack.
Any number of snapshots over time will document the decay of the fundamental and every harmonic.

But then, all this data can't establish what sounds 'better'.
Recently I was astonished to learn many here do NOT want a guitar with longer sustain.

How could the above TR test be improved upon?

[Jabberwocky]

Before you change the strings try pushing the bridge pins down. After 72 hours, they may have worked themselves upwards. Re-seat them firmly.

I would wish to hear your comments after you have re-seated the old strings in their slots.

I have a not so novel idea: any mechanical system requires a period of rest. Nobody plays a guitar for 72 hours continuously so why subject your guitar to that? 4 hours of Tonerite treatment at a time over 18 days mirrors real-world playing more closely. Even a wooden guitar requires rest.

The mere act of playing your guitar will open it up but it sounds like too much hard work. But I know that not only does my guitar get better I get better.

C'mon, time to kick the Tonerite to the kerb.

[Tico]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

... Nobody plays a guitar for 72 hours continuously so why subject your guitar to that?
4 hours of Tonerite treatment at a time over 18 days mirrors real-world playing more closely. ...

Because Tonerite's directions call for it ...
Quote:

Typical usage ranges from 30-minute instrument warm-up to 1+ week play-in sessions.

The best results from the ToneRite are obtained with at least one 72-hour session when you first use the ToneRite.

Regular use whenever you are not playing your instrument will help achieve its full potential and keep it here.

While 72 hours is the recommended minimum, many users have see huge improvements after the 144 hour mark.

Two or three 72-hour treatment will greatly improve the effects on most instruments.

[AHill]

Just out of curiosity, how long had you owned your 814ce prior to putting the Tonerite on it? Do you have an estimate on how much it's been played prior to your treatment?

[ii Cybershot ii]

Originally Posted by Tico

Yup, an abundance of variables, the unreliability of memory, and the power of psychoacoustics, not to mention definition of terms and personal preferences/biases, prevent proof of Tonerits's efficacy.

A truly scientific test of the Tonerite would be cool.

I think it would be fun to design the perfect comparison test.
Since nobody is going to pay for this it's all hypothetical, but I'll start.

New identical strings before and after TR treatment.
We'd need before and after recordings of the guitar.
Recordings must be in the same room, guitar in the same position, high-end flat reference microphone.

People are going to have a cow but another uncontrollable variable must be removed, the human player.
To get two completely identical performances a machine must pluck the strings in a precisely way every time.

Recordings should be played back on high end audio gear for many test subjects.
Listeners must not be told which recording is which, only A and B.
The person administering the test must also not know which is which, IOW a double blind test.
The listener questionnaire must be carefully worded to not introduce bias.

Put the audio into a spectrum analyzer.
That shows the frequency and amplitude of the fundamental and every harmonic at one instant.
One capture would be at the peak of the initial attack.
Any number of snapshots over time will document the decay of the fundamental and every harmonic.

But then, all this data can't establish what sounds 'better'.
Recently I was astonished to learn many here do NOT want a guitar with longer sustain.

How could the above TR test be improved upon?

I think the major factor that is almost impossible to replicate is the microphone and guitar positioning when recording.

So maybe just for purposes of testing the tonerite, that it should be done using some kind of direct line-in using a pickup system that either has an internal mic or some kind of body sensor capability. I think the Taylor ES2 with everything set to 50% would be useful for a "plugged in" test because it is so sensitive and picks up every little tap and touch of the top.

I'm on the fence that the tonerite even does anything at all. But I think plugging in when recording could definitely put to rest a lot of that skepticism.

[vindibona1]

UPDATE: One day later...
As I mentioned earlier, I changed the strings yesterday afternoon. I put the same brand/tension strings on that had been on during Toneriting.

To recap... After taking the Tonerite off the guitar didn't sound all that good at all. I thought it needed to be played in some on it's own. And as I played throughout the day the sound did improve. Forum members encouraged me to change the strings so I can really see what the Tonerite did. So I changed the strings. Fast forward...

After dinner I came home and played for a few minutes to check out how the strings were settling in. And yes, they had settled a bit, as expected not fully yet. When I strummed the guitar I heard something I had never heard with any other guitar I had ever played- ever; The resultant harmonics produced sounded like a 12 string!!!! Seriously, it was like the sound was 3 dimensional. It was like I could almost see the overtones just hovering over the fingerboard (figuratively, of course).

It might be important to note that the extra resultant harmonics are largely a product of the strings (SUS), but this was different. I swear, had I taken the guitar out to gig at that moment my buddies would be saying "OMG".

This morning, after settling over night I played it for a bit again to check. Some of the extreme highs have settled in as expected, but sound is huge. The sustain is forever, I believe because of the interplay of harmonics throughout the guitar that just simply linger. I was particularly keen to play it at the same time as I did the morning after I had installed my first set of Straight Up mediums. On the first set, I recall my perception that the guitar sounded dark (and wrote about it). This was not the case today.

As Cybershot points out below, replicating the mic situation would be difficult if not impossible, even though I have a pretty good handle on the positioning and I typically don't mess with the input gain on the interface. But I admit that my recording technique is still lacking and I don't think I would be able to reproduce anything close to the live experience.

Bottom line: My 6 week journey with this guitar has been interesting. It started with me just feeling ok about this guitar. A whole lot of string testing brought me to my current brand/tension of strings which only then caused me to bond with this guitar. I went into the Tonerite thing extremely skeptical, but it was available for free. Perhaps it's only my perception that the guitar has changed because of it. At this moment I think the change, though not measurable is real; again, at this moment. How my perception will be in a week when the strings have sat on the guitar and it's been gigged once may be different.

In any event, I thought I would create this journal for others interested. Thanks for taking the time to read it.

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

I think the major factor that is almost impossible to replicate is the microphone and guitar positioning when recording.

So maybe just for purposes of testing the tonerite, that it should be done using some kind of direct line-in using a pickup system that either has an internal mic or some kind of body sensor capability. I think the Taylor ES2 with everything set to 50% would be useful for a "plugged in" test because it is so sensitive and picks up every little tap and touch of the top.

I'm on the fence that the tonerite even does anything at all. But I think plugging in when recording could definitely put to rest a lot of that skepticism.

I felt the same way a week ago. But not any more.

[Truckjohn]

Sounds like you are very happy with the results.

If you don't mind me asking - what strings did you finally settle on?

[Long Jon]

ToneRite kills strings. (Just to reiterate what everyone else has said and you have already found for yourself.... )

I have left a couple of guitars on the TR for WEEKS at a time. Altered the vibe level and the guitar tuning randomly during these sessions.

Then put new strings on , always sounds great ,,, they usually do with new strings.
IDK if the TR made any dif to those guitars but they were already used when I got them, so have maybe already reached their full potential.

I am an "opening up" believer, as I have experienced a big improvement in my GSMini that was almost unplayed when I first got it.
Don't think I ever TR'd that one , but it got played a lot by me and friends during first few months, we all BELIEVE it improved.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Truckjohn

Sounds like you are very happy with the results.

If you don't mind me asking - what strings did you finally settle on?

I just got back home and played it again for a very short while just to see what I would hear. While I confess I want to hear a difference, at least in my perception the difference is undeniable and unmistakable. I played it for my GF this morning who has heard it every day for a month and she said that to her ear, which isn't nearly as sensitive and discerning as mine that it sounded more resonant.

My string set of choice on this guitar? Straight Up Strings, medium tension. I had never heard of them before someone on this forum mentioned them in passing. Mindlessly I ordered a set one lazy Saturday, liked them on my 614 and even more, much more on my 814ceDLX. In case you are unfamiliar with them, here is their website. Other than Elderly Instruments I don't know of any other retailers that sell them. They're definitely worth trying a set.
https://straightupstrings.com/pages/...gs-for-guitars