#61
|
|||||||
|
|||||||
Quote:
It may be that I'm aware of more theoretical levels than you are, or maybe more conscious of what I'm doing, but it seems like we play the same way - using those 3 levels you're talking about, aurally and largely subconsciously. There's no fundamental disagreement here . Quote:
That would be the case with pentatonics at least, and perhaps with scales such as the wholetone or diminished. Of course, melodic minor modes are used a lot in jazz, but the way they work is as sets of applied chromatics. Eg, the famous "altered" scale, aka "superlocrian", "diminished wholetone" or 7th mode melodic minor, used on V7 chords. Thinking of it as "7th mode melodic minor" is a way of remembering it, for those who know their melodic minor modes as well as their major scale modes. But the way it works is as a series of chromatic tensions with half-step voice-leading. I knew the theory of the altered scale way before I could actually use it. I didn't manage to apply it until I understood how it worked. It has nothing to do with melodic minor. I needed to forget that it was a "scale", and see how the alterations resolved. That made musical sense. The relation with a melodic minor mode is pure coincidence. That's one beef I have with applied scale theory: it keeps the focus of thought on scales, and not on melodic functionality. It persuades one to learn scale patterns, which - in turn - persuades one to run scales when soloing. "Oh, this scale fits, so I'll just run up and down it until the chord changes..." (I'm exaggerating, and I don't think you have that problem, but I hope you see the point .) Scales are way overrated! Quote:
So, I can mention a couple of chord-scale conventions on a dom7 chord: 1. altered scale (1 b2 #2 3 b5 #5 b7) - see above. 2. HW dim (1 b2 #2 3 #4 5 6 b7) You can study those as scales, and work out (or look up) fretboard patterns for them. Each of them lend themselves well to superimposed arpeggios (3- or 4-note selections from the 7 notes), which will contribute a good sense of structure. But the things to remember are: 1. Altered scale = chord tones 1-3-7, plus both altered 5ths and both altered 9ths 2. HW dim = chord tones 1-3-5-7, plus both altered 9ths, #11 and 13. 3. the chords (being functioning dom7s) are designed to resolve to a major or minor chord rooted a 4th above (5th down). Every note in, both chord and scale, is designed to either hold across to the next chord, or resolve up or down to a chord tone or extension on that next chord, usually by half-step. That's the mechanism. As long as you get that, there's no problem thinking of them as applied scales. But my view is that when I think of how the scale works, I'm no longer really thinking of it as a scale. I'm seeing the chord tones (& alterations/extensions), and I'm seeing the notes in the next chord that they can move to. So there's a quite rational view that can deal with the chords alone, and the voice-leading, and ignore the fact that the notes in question happen to form a scale. (Why think of a scale if you know all the notes in another way?) YMMV, naturally! Quote:
A summary of conventional applied (non-diatonic) scales in jazz might be the following: 1. Tonic major chord = lydian mode. Solves the P4 "avoid note". 2. V7 chord (minor or major key) = altered scale, HW dim, wholetone, augmented. All provide good chromatic voice-leading to the next chord. They also all solve both the P4 avoid note, and the b6 avoid note. 3. bII7 chord (major or minor key), or bVII chord (major key), or bVI7 in minor key = lydian dominant, aka 4th mode melodic minor. Closest scale to the diatonic scale (pretty much) that includes all the chord tones. On a bII7 chord is the exact tritone sub for the altered V7. (E7alt and Bb7, if both resolving to Am, will both take the F melodic minor scale.) No avoid notes. 4. m7b5 chord (ii in minor key) = locrian natural 2, aka 6th mode melodic minor. Solves the b9 avoid note. 5. susb9 = phrygian natural 6, 2nd mode melodic minor. Optional alternative to phrygian, in modal jazz. (NB, not on a iii chord in major key!) That's pretty much it (although I may have forgotten one or two). Applied scales on other chords are not really helpful or necessary. And notice the purpose of all those scales: most of them are about "avoiding the avoid notes" - giving a full set of freely usable notes, while preserving functional purpose. It's important to be aware of those twin purposes: both good reasons for diverging from diatonic scales. Quote:
Quote:
My knowledge (and interest) doesn't really extend much beyond that. Eg, the harmonic major scale (1 2 3 4 5 b6 7) is pretty cool, but I've only ever heard of one application of it, in functional jazz - and I'm not sure I can remember what it is! I think it was the 3rd mode. Eg, C harmonic major on an E7 chord. Gives 1-b2-#2-3-5-b6-b7 (E F G G#(Ab) B C D). IOW, you get both altered 9ths, and keep the perfect 5th. However you also have the b6 (b13) which is an avoid note against the 5th. The 5th mode also looks good for a V7sus4b9 chord. C harmonic major on G7 gives you 1-b2-3-4-5-6-b7. The avoid note issue doesn't arise because the chord is a sus4. (Note this is for a V7susb9 in a major key. Susb9 chords (1-4-5-b7-b9) might be phrygian modal chords, in which case this scale is wrong.) BTW, the harmonic major scale does also provide the entire melody of the bridge of Irving Berlin's Blue Skies (probably accidentally)... Quote:
When major key chord progressions (I-IV-V anyway) have the tonic minor pent applied, that "sounds like blues", which is why it's done. "Other chord progressions" are entirely based on western practices: either functional harmony (with its traditionally codified use of chromaticism), or modal/static harmony, where chromaticism is more limited (because the static sound depends so much on preserving the diatonic mode). It's quite possible to imagine western scales (and their chord sequences) coloured by other ethnic heritages, such as (say) raga, with its countless scale forms, all of them subject to microtonal embellishment, in more complex ways than blues. I know lots of musicians have worked with combining Indian practices with western ones, but I don't know that music well enough to know details.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. |
#62
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Check out Ed Byrne's comments on the concept of "Linear Improvisation." Or do you actually not want help? It seems like you're looking for some easy answer like "play this scale over this chord and you'll get a totally new sound." It doesn't work like that. |
#63
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
To save MoF buying the book (or ideally to persuade him )... http://jazztalk.wordpress.com/webrings/ http://freejazzinstitute.com/showposts.php?dept=lji http://freejazzinstitute.com/showpos...084503_EdByrne Thread on it here: http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...ovisation.html
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. |
#64
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I'll play those, I'll throw arpeggios in, it's just, in my mind, it is a scale, and there is a chord playing at a given time. Just the sound is the main thing for me when I solo, but I'll play the chord that's playing in arpeggio, and resolve to the chord tones. i just don't necessarily think of it so much. Maybe I do sometimes, but it is not very present in my mind, even though I do it. I will also arpeggiated other chords that are not the chord that's playing. It's a different sound, but to me, it's like, I see that in the scale, and I want that sound. It doesn't "matter" to me, whether it is the chord that's playing or not. It just matters whether or not I want that sound at that time. But I recognize that when I play the chord that's playing that will be a "stronger" sound. I will find it also, without knowing what chord is playing. That said, knowing all the chords in their 3 positions, is something I work on. And I don't know them all because I don't know all the note names. Which is something else I'm working on. So, it's more of a case of "I already do that" afaict, but I'm just saying that I don't really look at it that way so much. I have more of a key oriented view of the fretboard. Chords in it, are, to me, just collections within that. You have made me thought of something though. On the piano, you can look at say, the major key, and look at Cmajor, and you will see that it is 3 notes, with a whole step in between them, and then you can continue going up in steps of the key like that, and you begin to build other chords, that layer on top, creating maj 7th, maj 9th, 13th etc... I think that learn the triads and where they sit relative to each other on the fretboard might be cool. in piano it is easy and obvious. That Em on top of C is building Cmaj7, is not as obvious on guitar. I think this could be cool to recognize. Look at the fretboard in terms of chords that are each a whole step of the key up. That might be cool. Never thought of it that way before on guitar. I will still look at what you suggest though. |
#65
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Like we said, Aeolian played on the vi, is just the key scale, but if I didn't hear that in context, somebody could be talking to me at length about playing aeolian over a vi, and I'd be all ears and interested for a good while, until I get to my guitar, and realize all that time listening to that, was wasted, because it's just the key scale really. But anything that can be applied to diatonic progressions are things I am interested in. The downer is that Jazz tends not to look at it that way, because Jazz is all over the place. I would like to take some of those Jazz concepts and apply them to diatonic progressions though, if it possible. I just don't know which can and which can't. I know there are a bunch of scales, and stuff like that, and I know that in jazz they look at improvisation very much on a chord by chord basis, because it switches key so much, but I don't really want to play music that is like that. I like diatonic music. I like music that strays from that slightly, maybe a secondary dominant here or there or whatever, but I don't like music that changes too much in this way. I'm curious though, do you know why the 12 bar blues works with pentatonic minor and also the key scale, whereas other things don't? Last edited by Monk of Funk; 11-13-2013 at 02:10 PM. |
#66
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Trying to grasp onto some jazz concepts and apply them to your music is possible, but like anything else, understanding the concept is what will lead you to that point. It is like a jig saw puzzle, you can keep it all in a pile or have a few pieces clipped together at random points, still not quite allowing you to see the bigger picture .... or you can break it down step by step and slowly put it all together. I would highly recommend the berklee (boston) online jazz program, or at least their jazz 101 class, also their chords 101, great instructors, same format as their on campus classes, and same instructors. That would definitely answer all of your questions / ideas / concepts Last edited by Dalegreen; 11-13-2013 at 11:01 PM. |
#67
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You may not like or understand jazz - that's OK - but the reason we talk about jazz in this context is it's the one western music that has made improvisation its business. It's pretty much dug every outside groove you can think of, in the hunt for new things to say. So jazz - like it or not - probably has the answers you want... somewhere. I understand what you say about needing to hear it, which is why I think you need to do a lot of listening - to stuff you don't normally listen to - to find your way towards your goal, and give us something to work from. That's at least the 3rd time you've asked that. What don't you like (or understand) about the answers?
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. |
#68
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I agree that the answers are probably in theory that has to do with Jazz, but it might take me a while to study all of jazz and whole bunch of songs that I really don't like, in order to learn a bunch of stuff that is only really useful for some stuff that is only present in Jazz, and I'd like to avoid that if possible. Quote:
But anything you can tell about this improvisation would be really helpful. It's little wing. Basically just Em, but it has those slidy chords in it at the end of the progression, which I forget what they are called, but those are not diatonic I don't think. Although he does slide them up, and they work in a diatonic like pattern when you do that. What's tough is he'll often go very fast. But any concepts you see/hear, that are not playing Em scale in some way, would be awesome to know. EDIT: sorry, forgot to mention it's technically in Eb, but that's because he tuned his guitar down a half step, which is annoying, but there you go. Quote:
Last edited by Monk of Funk; 11-13-2013 at 06:55 PM. |
#69
|
|||
|
|||
Re: monte Montgomery
It's Em. Lots of Em. It's tough to help you monk...you keep making up names for things..."work in a diatonic like way?" Stuff is either diatonic or not. I suppose he approaches some things chromatically, sliding in from a half step above or below...i dunno, it's so hard for me to listen to him Butcher that tune...ignoring those beautiful chord changes...for 10 darn minutes. He could benefit from hitting some thirds and sevenths, reminding us it's not just a big wash of E minor...but you don't want to hear that. Sorry, I get worked up about the way guitar players worship that performance, because I think it's awful, and representative of everything wrong with knowing a song is basically "in a key." Jimi's solo, about 9 and a half minutes shorter, addresses the chords beautifully. Jimi played changes...Some tunes beg for it...little wing does. |
#70
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Other than that, I can't really figure out what would help you. You want to learn how to play cool sounds that you don't know already, if I'm reading you right. You either have to come up with those yourself, or learn them from someone else. There are hundreds of books on this stuff, so that's one way. Or find a good player, and take lessons. Or you can pick them up the way most of the best players have, by listening (or these days, by watching on You Tube). That's 4 different approaches, not sure what else there is.
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#71
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Much later I happened to meet some pro jazz musicians (and play with one or two of them), whose music (live) blew me away more than old jazz records ever did; then I went to jazz workshops and summer schools, read about it... And I STILL wouldn't say I'm a huge fan of jazz in general. But I have noticed that it's always way better live than it is on record. I guess you can say that for most music, but it seems particularly so for jazz. It tends to sound dry and dull on recordings; too intellectual, or too cheesy, or too cute. But even the cheesiest old jazz comes alive when it's being played in front of you. And some contemporary jazz will just blow you away like no rock ever will. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R990oiRxy6U - if jazz had been like that when I was a teenager, my life would have been very different.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rveiwBEOT6o (love the guy scratching his head at 0:56 ) - and this is jazz too, like I never heard it back then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svzv-YkUzdk Still - YMMV, and that's normal . Quote:
Quote:
To me, that's a half-interesting mix of interesting musical ideas and guitar pyrotechnics (which interest me not at all). Quote:
http://www.seventhstring.com/ - so I suggest you download that (it's free for a month's trial). You can record streaming audio directly into the program (that's what I'd do), or you can download and convert the youtube (needs other software, takes a little longer) if you want to work with the video too. Just from an initial listen I'd say he's extending those chromatic chord ideas into chromatic arpeggios on the faster sections - but I can't be sure. If you can specify a particular time reference in the video, I don't mind examining several seconds-worth of licks here and there for you, but I'm not about to transcribe the whole thing, I don't have the time (or inclination). Posts 34, 50 and (in particular) 61 dealt with it. Sorry if it's not the answer you want, but I don't know how else to answer it.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. Last edited by JonPR; 11-14-2013 at 04:19 AM. |
#72
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I think you probably wouldn't like listening to me play this song either. Except I would stick a little more to the chords, because I wouldn't have a bass player with me. |
#73
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
finding a good teacher would be cool, but I'm not really sure how to go about finding one. I think there must be a few around here, but it would be a question of finding them. I'll try transcribe, but I'm skeptical. I think through the fast parts it won't be able to cope, for chords it won't be able to cope, especially that specific recording, where the audio quality is not the greatest as I recall. I know you can slow stuff down, but usually for fast licks, that means stretching out the sound so much that it separates too much, and that makes it tough to hear the notes anyway. But I'll try it. being able to see his hands will help somewhat, that's true. Idk, I'll give it a shot and try to find something cool to rip off in there. |
#74
|
|||||
|
|||||
Quote:
Quote:
Ya, transcribe was suggested to me by someone else. The last time I saw it in action was quite a while ago now, so I suspect it has improved, but I'm still a bit skeptical that it will be able to handle this sort of thing. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I feel there must be some sort of theory explanation as to why this different scale, that uses notes outside of the chords, and the key, works so nicely all the way through the progression. You take any other ethinic sound like arabic or something, and if that layered on top of some chord progression that was diatonic to a key, and for which that ethnic tune sounds great over, and is not diatonic to the key, then I would expect it would need the same reasoning. It might be a special case, but I feel like there must be a theory explanation for it. And that might be useful in snippets, if I can recognize that to happen for a short time through a progression, and then maybe another short time, with a different pentatonic or something. |
#75
|
|||
|
|||
Wow, the algorithms for slowing audio in transcribe are very good. Better than most other things I've tried.
|