Theory is boring to me..

[Da Sugarbear]

For what it's worth, I've been playing and teaching on and off for 44 years. I've taught at the college level, small groups, individuals and classes up to 30 students. In all that time I've taught people from 7 years old to 67 and I've had a lot of students who ended up coming to me after having experienced learning the guitar by way of some teacher whose priority was to teach them how to read music... as opposed to learning how to play songs that interested them. Some teachers have methods that are more designed to keep the income stream happening than to advance the student at a rate that keeps them progressing and maintains their interest and enthusiasm.
Some students have come to me after as much as 3 years of struggling with playing by reading and they were ready to quit. They didn't even know the names of their strings (E, A, D, G, B, E) in standard tuning. They didn't know the Chromatic Scale (... A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G# A...) or how that related to the strings. They didn't understand why you tune by using the 5th fret of the Low E to get the A string played open and so on... What they were learning was so inappropriate for where they wanted to go with the instrument... play songs around the campfire or entertain their small children... Not everyone is looking be become a concert classical guitarist!!
I would suggest that you find a teacher who will approach the guitar as a chromatic instrument to begin with and then move on to the value of diatonic theory. You'll need to have a foundation in Diatonic Theory to understand chord structures and harmony but none of that comes easily if you don't begin with the Chromatic Scale and see how it pertains to the guitar fingerboard. This may sound rudimentary but I've seen a lot of people who were being taught to relate to the guitar as if it were laid out as a diatonic instrument, which is isn't. Therein lies some of the problem since the guitar is naturally much easier to understand chromatically, at least until you achieve a comfort level with the instrument. No matter how much someone else insists that the guitar is diatonic, the fact remains that it just isn't linear with all the black and white keys and that approach sure makes the whole thing MUCH more difficult and a hell of lot less fun!
If you have any specific questions, feel free to email me... [email protected]
I'll do what I can for you. Kindest regards,
Good luck to ya!

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Da Sugarbear

You'll need to have a foundation in Diatonic Theory to understand chord structures and harmony but none of that comes easily if you don't begin with the Chromatic ...Scale'

Very good point. Hooray, more songs like "Secret Agent Man".

[SteveHung]

Sorry, can't recommend a specific book, but how to make music theory interesting is after learning learning a music theory concept, to play a passage of music that applies the music theory concept you learn. This is absolutely crucial, as it shows real life musical applications and moves you towards actually learning music rather than becoming a library of useless musical information.

For example:

The tritone interval (devil's chord) is used in the first two notes of The Simpsons opening theme song, as well as the opening riff of Hendrix's Purple Haze.

Intervals of 4ths are used in Smoke on the Water.

Octave intervals are used a lot in Wes Montgomery's music.

Chromatic progression is used in the main riff to Hendrix's Wind Cries Mary and Flight of the Bumblebee

[Da Sugarbear]

Thanks, Rick... After I posted that last bit I thought, well, here goes... folks are going to start chewing on me....
I appreciate the positive words...

[Da Sugarbear]

Thanks, Rick... After I posted that last bit I thought, well, here goes... folks are going to start chewing on me....
I appreciate the positive words...
And Steve's point is right on the mark... As you learn theory and structure, if you relate it to music the interests you, it will all absolutely QUIT being Boring in no time...
And alternatively, when you find a piece of music that you like, you can work to find the theory that is making it come together and appeal to you. That sure makes the theory not only interesting, but useful if you are into composing your own stuff...

[jasperguitar]

My two notes worth. If you want to be called a musician, you must be able to read music. Period. No discussion. I don't care about some country singer who learned to play on the porch. I don't want to hear that Joe Smoke never read music. Or Tommy E, or Fast Fingers Willy. Either you can read music, or you can't. It is utterly ridiculous to call yourself a musician when you can't even read "music". Doh ??? Its like walking through the forest, you come upon someone banging on a drum. You say "gee, you play that drum real good" .. and he say "this is a drum?" ... No excuses, .. learn to read music. You wrote that you get crazy after two pages .. well, read two pages. Then tomorrow read two more. Really, its not that tough. ... Sorry if I sound blunt, but I feel strongly about this.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by jasperguitar

My two notes worth. If you want to be called a musician, you must be able to read music. Period. No discussion. I don't care about some country singer who learned to play on the porch. I don't want to hear that Joe Smoke never read music. Or Tommy E, or Fast Fingers Willy. Either you can read music, or you can't. It is utterly ridiculous to call yourself a musician when you can't even read "music". Doh ??? Its like walking through the forest, you come upon someone banging on a drum. You say "gee, you play that drum real good" .. and he say "this is a drum?" ... No excuses, .. learn to read music. You wrote that you get crazy after two pages .. well, read two pages. Then tomorrow read two more. Really, its not that tough. ... Sorry if I sound blunt, but I feel strongly about this.

Naw, that is a very narrow approach to the term musician.

[mr. beaumont]

Again, I guess my thing here is that guitar players call "fundamentals" "theory" a lot of the time...most guitar players don't really need theory, and knowing theory isn't necessarily going to make anybody a better guitar player.

Now fundamentals are huge...and eye opening. And you don't need a "theory" book to learn them, just a pencil and paper and some time.

[JanVigne]

So I can play a song without knowing that I have just played intervals? I can play a chord without knowing about a triad?

Yeah, I can do that. But where do I go after that? No one has said you shouldn't play songs. However, if all you ever know is how to play a song, won't the next song be a struggle too?

That's where just the slightest bit of theory makes life easier for the student, IMO. If some theory appreciation weren't useful, why have so many people been told they should learn some amount of theory?

[mr. beaumont]

Was that addressed to me?

I'm not saying don't learn theory. I am saying--without a grasp of the fundamentals, theory's just a "cloud." And I'm saying that guitar players seem to call a lot of stuff theory that isn't.

Furthermore, learning a little theory never helped anyone who didn't have a GOAL in mind. I have students come to me all the time and ask about theory...I ask them why they want to learn it...they often say something like "So I can get better with scales and stuff"...that's not a goal.

Set goals. Theory isn't magic. It explains music after the fact. If you don't know clearly what you want to get get out of it, it's a useless quest.

[RustyAxe]

Theory, IMO, is best learned when coupled with learning songs and/or exercises that reinforce the theory. I was fortunate that I was given music lessons (piano, accordion, bass) from the time I was six years old, and that's how I learned. I can't imagine sloggin' through a dry text without hearing and playing the things being presented.

[JanVigne]

"I'm not saying don't learn theory. I am saying--without a grasp of the fundamentals, theory's just a "cloud." And I'm saying that guitar players seem to call a lot of stuff theory that isn't.

Furthermore, learning a little theory never helped anyone who didn't have a GOAL in mind. I have students come to me all the time and ask about theory...I ask them why they want to learn it...they often say something like "So I can get better with scales and stuff"...that's not a goal.

Set goals. Theory isn't magic. It explains music after the fact. If you don't know clearly what you want to get get out of it, it's a useless quest."




Very good answer. Next question; how do you define "goals"?

"So I can get better with scales and stuff" has the same answer as, "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?" Practice, practice , practice.

Oh, and stop thinking everything you play must be shred.

What's a definable goal when it comes to learning music theory? Especially for someone just beginning to play an instrument.

[Bern]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

What's a definable goal when it comes to learning music theory? Especially for someone just beginning to play an instrument.

Personally, I would answer this question this way, when I was young and I learned how to swim, I did not have the goal in mind to become an Olympic swimmer, just to be proficient to stay afloat and not drown.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by prsplayer12

I'm trying to learn stuff like chord building, the circle of fifths, basic scales, etc.

I don't really know how to explain it.. which is my first problem. I know how to read sheet music (albeit I'm not too great or quick at it..) and I know the basic fret board layout but I want to expand and learn how to develop melodies, chords, scales, and stuff like that.

To make an analogy, I think you're expecting a study of grammar to make you a better poet. Or a study of paint chemistry to make you a better artist.

The way to "learn how to develop melodies" (to take just one goal) is to - er - study melodies . Learn to play songs. There are theories of melody, but they're pretty complicated, and you will learn the rules much better just by listening and copying.

I fully agree with mr beaumont "knowing theory isn't necessarily going to make anybody a better guitar player." - in fact I'd go further and lose the word "necessarily" .

Becoming a better player (to use that word carefully) is about developing your technique and your ear. Not your theoretical knowledge. Theory only gives you the names for the sounds you're making; it doesn't help you play them better.
Of course, theory can introduce you to musical ideas you didn't know about - it can expand the vocabulary of sounds at your disposal. It can (in fact it WILL) tend to make you a more well-rounded "musician". But that doesn't necessarily translate to playing music better - not if you neglect your ear, that is.
After all, you could read theory all day long for months on end - leave your guitar in its case - and become a genius at theory; but worse at playing!

IOW, it's about understanding categories of knowledge, and how (or if, or how much) they apply to your goals. Theory is very valuable (I love it myself, probably too much ). But what matters more is developing your ear, and of course your technical skills.
And your knowledge of music itself, which is where it all comes together.

If you learn to play songs, all your musical skills (ear, technique, theory) develop hand in hand at the same time. Your ear is always being trained (even if you only learn from tab or notation, you are listening as you're playing and checking yourself); you are learning - or improving - whatever technique is necessary; and you are learning about theory, in the way the song is put together.
Songs (any musical composition) are where you see theory in action. You don't need to understand any theory that doesn't describe the music you want to play, in some way.

Nobody writes songs (or improvises a solo) by reading a theory book first. They do it by putting together a lot of vocabulary that they've learned by listening to music, and by copying it. They may not even know any theory terms. They just know the sounds they want, and how to get them. And - obviously - that only comes from plenty of listening, and plenty of copying.

[ljguitar]

Hey folks...

I think theory is best learned and then kept to one's self. I know theory. I use theory.

I never discuss theory on the job. I just figure out which language the person or people I'm playing with speak (especially the one in charge of picking songs and arranging), and then we can communicate and get to the music.

I don't correct their choice of musical expression, nor criticize their lack of proper music grammar.

I'm just there to make music, and the better we understand each other, and the better I personally understand the form of the song, and the instrument, the better we sound.

It's kind of a personal Working Theory…