Tried Taylor V-braced guitars, here's what I think...

[JohnW63]

we love our new V-Class bracing we hope you try it, but we know some traditional players may prefer X-braced guitars

Why ? That would be the same as saying, " Here is our new product, by we know some of you won't like it. "

I don't know ANY company or read any add or seen a commercial where I've EVER heard a company say that.

Did Martin state that with any of their Authentics or the "re-imagined" series ? Do they let you know that you may not like scalloped of forward shifted bracing when they make those changes or build guitars with them as an upgrade ?

And now you think the guitar playing public should no longer trust Taylor because of this ?

I'm sorry, but as logical as your first post was, your second post is almost types by a different person.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

I don't know ANY company or read any add or seen a commercial where I've EVER heard a company say that.

I think you made the OP's point. To maintain credibility for a company to produces something that represents craftsmanship, you shouldn't oversell. In particular, you shouldn't let your head luthier oversell.

There is (or should be) a difference in peddling diet pills and guitars.

[JohnW63]

But the OP wanted Taylor to market their product like that, but doesn't seem to hold others to that same standard.

[JohnW63]

If you mad that Taylor is marketing their new guitars by saying things you don't believe, and will no longer trust them, where have you been ? Overselling is a new thing ?


How many of you Martin players had this happen ?



Or this gem:

[ii Cybershot ii]

I played a 914ce V-class at Guitar Center today, which is now the second time I have played one, the first time being the Taylor day at Gryphon. I have to say I came away far less enthused this time. It felt unbalanced towards the treble strings, and they were very loud in the upper registers. I did not notice the sustain difference which I had noticed on the first go-round. I think this bracing pattern will be well-suited for GS and DN size guitars, and I prefer the sound of my 714ce to this $4999 914ce. But of course I was playing it at a Guitar Center...

[SprintBob]

Let’s say it is October 2017 and I am talking to Taylor about a BTO that I want to be the best they can build for me and I’m going to drop $5K or more on it. Do you think they would have told me to hang on another 2 months to wait on a change that will be evolutionary in guitar design? I think not, they would have taken my money right then and most likely built a guitar I would be very happy with.

And then the V-braced guitars are introduced and the marketing basically wants me to believe that all guitars with any other bracing are now inferior by design (at least that is how the marketing context has come across to me).

That approach IMO has made Taylor look disengenuous to its customers like me (who bought over $7K in new Taylor guitars in 2017). I’m like the OP in that I retain a degree of cynicism in the claims and that seems to be bearing out as the actual results are very subjective in terms of whether Taylor achieved what they claimed.

I’ll say it again. A better approach would have been for the context of their marketing presentation to present V bracing as a new feature that improves upon their current X bracing patterns that are already very established and good. The logic that all X-bracing has chaotic and flawed resonance/sustain characteristics is pushing it or was really not necessary.

[bbigsby]

I had the opportunity to play 3 high end Taylor V braced. They were very nice playing/sounding guitars. I still prefer the Martin sound.

I think if I was a Taylor guy, or when it comes to a time where I have to add a Taylor to my collections it would be the V braced model. Why? Although traditionally I like the Martin Sound/look, I like the idea of the bolt on neck and V Top for durability and lower maintenance costs. Another appointment I would like to see offered on higher end guitars is Nickel Steel frets with higher % mix of stainless steel. There is a very interesting PRS video out there where Paul describes the Nickel SS mix in their frets. I had to go back to my PRS and look at the wear after 2 years and it all made since. There are quite a few players like me out there who "choke" the neck with a songs dynamic and thus result in more fret ware than usual.

Going back to this thread on the V Brace. The guitar sounded great but like any other nice sounding guitar. I would pay the premium because I respect/encourage positive innovation's that provides long term stability of the top and possibly provides better tone.

[mattwood]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

The recent threads where software has been used to do analysis have been entertaining. To be fair they have their place in measuring things like volume and sustain. Assuming the tools used can measure the granularity needed evaluate the differences (someone mentioned an iPhone app which makes me wonder), software can help validate the core claims Taylor has made. But validating those claims doesn't really tell the musician anything about tonal character/timbre. Doesn't consider shift in balance between mids, highs and lows. Tonal character (timbre) is at least as important as volume and sustain. The more analytical among us hone in on just the things we can measure and ignore everything else. From a marketing standpoint, the measurable attributes work great. But it's only part of the story. Reading Andy Power's V-Class bracing article in Wood & Steel, I can't recall mention of impacts on timbre, yet in demo video after demo video on YouTube I felt like I was hearing some changes... As mentioned in my top post, I know between the models I A-B tested there certainly were. I also know Taylor in general is the most consistent builder guitar to guitar, so I do not think the changes I was hearing to timbre (the "mid-range scoop" on new the 914ce) can be attribute to it just being the usual "no two are exactly the same". They only had one new 914ce to try so I can't say this definitively, but I think it's very unlikely as in the demo videos I was hearing the same issue.

Fortunately for Taylor tonal character is subjective and the new V-Class braced guitars still sound like Taylor guitars, what my ears pick up on and find a turn-off others may feel is so nuanced that it just doesn't matter given the volume and sustain benefits. The one thing that is clear, Taylor is not going to admit to any weakness in the new V-Class bracing. Go back and watch all the videos they've put up, the official marketing videos on their channel and also the NAMM interview videos and you'll NEVER hear them say something like "we love our new V-Class bracing we hope you try it, but we know some traditional players may prefer X-braced guitars". That would be an honest statement. Instead of going down that path Taylor has let their reps go ahead and fill the public in on the companies intentions to transition every series 300 and up to V-Class bracing over the next few years. We know X-bracing is no longer a custom build option on the 914ce and K24ce so it will be interesting if they really phase X-bracing out altogether. To me this is a line in the sand moment for Taylor, from a business stand point it makes perfect sense why they align behind their new innovation and pretend there is no subjectivity to it's superiority.

It seems like such a little thing and it's a play we've seen in so many other industries, but Taylor's aggression and would say manipulative marketing ("manipulative" because they never acknowledge that player who may prefer X-bracing or acknowledge that it does slightly alter the timbre) it's something I really hope the guitar community continues to give them a hard time about, because if the community doesn't then it's going to force other builders to follow Taylor's lead. All marketing is at some level manipulative, but I don't recall Martin or Gibson going out of their way to hail an major innovation and then go on to push a narrative and pretend something subjective is objective.

C.F. Martin's transparency is something I've always found attractive about the company. In one of their presentation's at NAMM this year, Chris Martin states that they changed the lineup a bit to give dealers something new to offer customers. No grandiose talk-up about how superior the new models are to the old, Martin and even Gibson (who has done some crazy things like robo-tuners) leaves these things up to the community to decide. It's a more ethical, "let the product speak for itself" stance. It's a harsh word, but Taylor's tactics with the V-Class bracing launch are disgraceful and unforgettable. Unforgettable in the sense that they company just can't be trusted in the future. They will clearly say whatever they need to in order to try and sell product and grow their business. This is the dark side of Capitalism. Even with privately held companies, success just breeds more greed. I think there was a lot of room for more integrity in the V-Class bracing marketing and considering they are already outselling Gibson and Martin six to one some dealers are telling me, they have the head room to pick integrity over "let's do whatever we must to move product". But Taylor also has incredible muscle. The retail dealer network has to sell product to be successful and Taylor guitars sell very well. Dealers have incredible incentive to nod along the preach the gospel of Taylor. What does the retail clerk have to loose pushing Taylor's marketing narrative? Nothing really. They know behind the sell is a company that is great with post-sale customer service, they believe in Taylor as a company so they are glad to help convince customers V-Class bracing is the second coming of the acoustic guitar... This is win-win for retailers. The strategy will work. Taylor knows it will work, retailers know it will work.

This is how powerful marketing has become, it creates realities.

We live in interesting times where it's all about controlling the influences. This could be the local retail sells person, musicians or athletes giving product endorsements, it could be news personalities on Fox and CNN (won't go there, but this does apply to culture and politics as well). Once you control the influencers you control the masses. The only way to escape it all is to take the blinders off and embrace a bit of cynicism, become aware of the war going on by stealth marketing for every dollar you're going to spend, don't give 100% trust to anyone who stands to gain something from influencing you to buy something. As I found to be true with V-Class bracing, there's usually some element of truth behind marketing claims, but it's not the entire story.

Now I'm starting to wonder if Bob Taylor was on the grassy knoll or at Roswell.

[00045]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

I played a 914ce V-class at Guitar Center today, which is now the second time I have played one, the first time being the Taylor day at Gryphon. I have to say I came away far less enthused this time. It felt unbalanced towards the treble strings, and they were very loud in the upper registers. I did not notice the sustain difference which I had noticed on the first go-round. I think this bracing pattern will be well-suited for GS and DN size guitars, and I prefer the sound of my 714ce to this $4999 914ce. But of course I was playing it at a Guitar Center...

One thing about Gryphon is, the acoustic in that shop is great. The old building just resonates.
I was at the Taylor day last week, I was not very impressed with the V-class 914ce. The one that sounded the best to me was the Koa one, K14ce. I was quite impressed on the volume and sustain up the neck.

[JohnW63]

Seems like most people like the V braced Koa model.

I'd like to try one of these new Taylors, just to see. I don't need a new guitar, so that is as far as it will go.

[v32 finish]

Thanks for writing such a concise review of your experiences. This was very, very helpful. Also... +1 on Fullers Guitars. I was very impressed with this shop. I'm about a 40 minute drive away, myself, so this was my first time going to Fullers at the Taylor road show event this weekend.. but it's a huge step up from what I have in my area, which is basically a small GC (or 2) and a music store attached to a pawn shop. I'll definitely be going back there in the future and was impressed with the staff.

I can see how some people feel that Taylor was a bit, lets say, disingenuous towards their customers who have embraced their X-braced models. But I don't really know about saying that you can't trust them as a company, either. I think they could have approached it better, yes. I think they went out on a limb, and really, I think they are passionate and believe what they're saying. So actually, maybe disingenuous isn't the right word either. But I don't think that they are really Evil, either. They're trying to sell guitars, but I definitely think a slightly different approach wouldn't have rubbed so many people the wrong way. At the same time.. I think some people are over-reacting just a tad.

I don't know. I can tell they believe in what they're doing, even though I do question if the 100% quantitative *science* behind it is totally sound.. (I went to the Road show this weekend and couldn't help myself from shaking my head a bit, as they asked the audience to clap in unison to a beat.. and comparing a vibrating top to that, compared to just regular applause... I still haven't seen something 100% definitive that tells me this is true, and seems quite a blanket statement) . And of course - we're talking about a huge, huge company here; of course marketing is going to come into it.

Anyway. I think everything should be taken with a grain of salt. I didn't even play the V-braced models because the crowd was so thick, and sooo many people playing, it wouldn't have mattered. I went to the other side of the shop and played the used 2015 614ce that I've had my eye on for so long. But what I DID hear, of the models they demo'd... I was really, really impressed with the clarity and the overall sound. That's just to my ear, tone is subjective and all that- again, didn't play them, but what *I* heard? It sounded really, really, really good. And I do consider myself halfway of a skeptic, so I wasn't just drinking the kool-aid, either. I plan to go back when it's quieter, to give the 614 another play (wasn't blown away.. ) and also hopefully try the V-brace, even though I won't be a potential buyer until it filters way down there to the lower models. Like a 314 Ltd maybe? I could do that.

Anyways, thanks again for the honest assessment. It helps to have someone breaking it down who's actually A/B'd them both, and who is respected. Just wanted to toss in my $.02 and call it a night.

regards
SC

[JohnW63]

At the same time.. I think some people are over-reacting just a tad.

Ya THINK !

I think the issue is that Taylor didin't just come out and say, " This new bracing will improve the sound of our guitars in fundemental ways, so we plan on phasing it in on all our lines. " and left it like that. I suspect the reason was that it would have generated a ton of " How will it improve this ? " , so they told their exact reasons why they felt it was good enough to not just offer it as an option on "special high end models " like some companies might have.

The problem SOME people have is they think the explanation makes it sound like traditional X braced guitars are "flawed" by comparison. So they take it personally. "My guitar sounds FINE ! " so Taylor must lying about this whole bracing thing. In my view, if you think Taylor is claiming that everyone's old school design guitar is flawed, you have read WAY more into this than is there.

Taylor had reasons to explore this type of bracing. They experimented for years, I am quite sure, and probably did a lot of A/B comparisons. This is going to require some notable, and costly, changes to the building process. They are betting the farm on it, since it's going to be in ALL their guitars. They wouldn't do this based on marketing ploy to gain attention. They are not lying , evil , people. Their just making a change to their guitars.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

Ya THINK !

They are betting the farm on it, since it's going to be in ALL their guitars. They wouldn't do this based on marketing ploy to gain attention. They are not lying , evil , people. Their just making a change to their guitars.

Whoa. Dude. Chill. It's OK.

Come Monday, we can sort out these differences in perspective. They're quite minor, but significant.

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by mattwood

Now I'm starting to wonder if Bob Taylor was on the grassy knoll or at Roswell.

... or did Bob sign up Danny Zager as his new Marketing & Advertising Campaign Manager?

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

Ya THINK !

The problem SOME people have is they think the explanation makes it sound like traditional X braced guitars are "flawed" by comparison. So they take it personally. "My guitar sounds FINE ! " so Taylor must lying about this whole bracing thing. In my view, if you think Taylor is claiming that everyone's old school design guitar is flawed, you have read WAY more into this than is there.

For what Taylor is having their reps tell potential customers regarding V-Class bracing's benefits to be true statements, then Taylor has to be making these claims (see video below of an actual Taylor rep doing one of their clinics. This is a sample of what they are telling the world at their road show events). For the statements made in that video to be true then they are indeed claiming that "everyone's old school design is flawed". They absolutely ARE making that claim.




If you watch the video above and think otherwise, I would be interested to hear your interpretation. But Taylor's stance on this is very, very clear. Not just by the this reps words, but also from the mouth of Bob Taylor, Andy Powers and the companies admission that their plain is to remove X-bracing from the entire lineup and transition to V-Class bracing. Even if you interpret their comments to be specific only to Taylor's past X-braced guitars (leaving Martin, Gibson, etc.. out of it), they are still clearly saying if you own a X-braced Taylor it's upcoming V-braced counterpart will be superior. It is their unwillingness to approach this topic on subjective terms that has everyone angry. BTW Taylor is including all X-braced guitars in their judgement not just their own products. That includes even those old pre-war Martins. I don't have the videos handy, but their comments at NAMM made this clear to me.

I see no room for interpretation on how Taylor Guitars feels regarding the X-bracing vs V-Class bracing debate. They see their new design as so superior they intend to get rid of X-bracing entirely.

They are not lying , evil , people. Their just making a change to their guitars.

If Bob Tayor, Andy Powers & co truly believe their V-Class bracing is universally superior to X-bracing for all Taylor guitars, then I would say they are being honest. If however, they have made the decision to push V-Class bracing across the entire Taylor line just to make marketing happy to do what's best for business (they both have stake in the company and stand to profit), then there is a valid perspective to see their actions as dishonest. I believe Bob and Andy both believe in V-Class bracing and think it has some benefits over X-Class bracing, sure. But do I think they both believe for every guitar model in their lineup that it is better? After giving it a try for myself, I really doubt that. So that leads to the question "Would these two men go along with Taylor's marketing department and push V-Class bracing as universally superior to X-bracing just for the sake of the business?" I think they would and I think they are doing exactly that. If they are, then they are being dishonest and lying; at least from a certain perspective. Business ethics is a bit subjective territory. In my opinion it comes down to specific industry/market and what the norms are. In the game of Capitalism I don't know that it's fair to judge a company for duplicating questionable marketing tactics in order to stay competitive. Sometimes they are left without a choice. But I see it as rather despicable to pioneer these sort of tactics in the market when you're the company already crushing all your competitors as Taylor is. If seen some of the Martin ads where people are claiming "they did they same thing". I don't agree that it's the same thing. If you listen to Chris Martin talk about the 2018 redesigns, I hear no grandiose claims just honest conversation. You may see it differently, and that's fine.