Guitars Improving with Age?

[rick-slo]

When you bring the guitar close can you smell it - no, not the spilt beer or perspiration, but the wood. Those little molecules not long ago resided within the wood. The process seems to go on forever.

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

To the skeptics, I always pose this question: why would the guitar be the only machine that doesn't wear out?

So you are asserting that guitars, as machines, go through an expected decay, from "played in" to "worn out" over time. And the Played In period is the period where "older guitars improve with age"?

I'm in line with that - the follow on question is "When does worn out occur?" For a well-maintained acoustic that can be a long time. My oldest is over 80 years old and sounds magnificent with no structural issues.

[Silly Moustache]

I have heard that flamenco, perhaps classical guitars "wear out" - possibly due to some having cedar tops.

In my humble opinion after playing guitars since the '60s and having one in the attic untouched and in all weathers for ten years - guitar do, generally improve with age ...IF.. properly maintained - and regularly played.

I have played (and recently sold one) '70s Martins which were remarkable, (which goes against popular opinion) and I have played a "prewar" (actually a 1941) Martin D28 which was a dead as a very dead thing. Guitars improve with playing and with responding to not only time but by responding to resonance hence the logic of the "tonerite" etc (which DOES work).

Guitars go to sleep - if left in a fine case in an appropriate atmosphere a guitar will neither wear out not deteriorate, but it will settle down and become less resonant.

I have two identical sitka rosewood guitars - one is a battered '99 model which has been refretted twice and a virtually unused 2008 model - same wonderful and highly regarded maker, same model - both sound great - the earlier one sightly more rewarding and consistent.

I have two hog guitars - identical model - same maker etc. the '03 was, beforeI gt it very ruggedly used (judging by cosmetics) and has an adi top. The other is a virtually unused sitka 2007 version. Both are great - I prefer the later model !

Message : A good guitar is a good guitar and usually gets better.

Final thought - we are now all very aware of the different choices of tonewoods and of the dangers of heat and humidity changes - way back in the period between the 20s and '70s few knew or thought about such things - instruments got used and abused and carried around in cardboard cases etc.

Now we pay premium prices for them and worship the qualities of them. Why do they sound so good ? Partly because we perceive that they have "mojo" "if this guitar could talk" etc., but also because they went through all those hours of playing and became accustomed to resonating and accommodating the effects of those variables.

Moral: find a well made guitar ...work it !

[B Chas]

So many Martins, Gibsons and others from the 30's, 40's and 50's are highly regarded and sell for really high prices. Lots that have been played really long and hard, have lots of miles with repaired or unrepaired damage. I've played quite a few that sound really great and I must not be in the minority as lots of people are spending lots of money on these guitars. I wonder....is it the build process, the materials or ageing or a combination that makes these guitars sound so good? Or is it just that the great ones are the only ones that survived, a kind of natural selection process? Perhaps the great ones got played and played and the others got tossed.

[tomana]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

When you bring the guitar close can you smell it - no, not the spilt beer or perspiration, but the wood. Those little molecules not long ago resided within the wood. The process seems to go on forever.

and it would take that long before you'd hear a difference due to molecular loss

Breedlove used Spanish Cedar for the kerfing material (not sure if they still do and if so, for all models) perhaps simply because it smelled so good, I'm not really sure, but in an older Breedlove Factory Tour video the MC makes it a point to mention how good the kerfing makes the guitar smell

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Guitars go to sleep - if left in a fine case in an appropriate atmosphere a guitar will neither wear out not deteriorate, but it will settle down and become less resonant.

If this is true, we need a new model of physics. Maybe a new branch of string theory.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by gitnoob

If this is true, we need a new model of physics. Maybe a new branch of string theory.

Gitnoob, that is why many folks use Tonerites - in order to "wake up" instruments. They go to sleep but do not die - thy can be "woken up" again - it is just a matter of making the tonewoods adjust to resonance again - in my opinion (I know 'm not alone in this).

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Gitnoob, that is why many folks use Tonerites - in order to "wake up" instruments. They go to sleep but do not die - thy can be "woken up" again - it is just a matter of making the tonewoods adjust to resonance again - in my opinion (I know 'm not alone in this).

I didn't mean to pick on you, and I know about the widespread beliefs, but this is an interesting topic to me.

I was pretty neutral on the whole ToneRite debate, but if it did work, I wanted to understand how it worked, so I did an experiment.

Basically, my experimental data suggested that it doesn't do anything long-term, but we all know that humidity affects wood, and there may be a short-term humidity-related effect.

That's my current speculation on this whole "playing in" and "going to sleep" debate. The energy input isn't sufficient to make any structural or chemical changes. I think we're all experiencing changes due to water content, which are certainly real, but I think many people are drawing a questionable conclusion about cause and effect.

[Jschlueter]

I remember when I first got one of my Goodall guitars it had been sitting in its case for a year or so and had not been played. When I first picked it up I was actually a little disappointed in the sustain of the guitar. It didn't sound as full as I had hoped. So I did a little experiment.

First I checked the relative humidity then, I timed the sustain of 5 different chords each one played 5 times and got an average for sustain length. A couple months after having the guitar and playing it nearly every day I did the same thing with the same chords, the same pick, and the same progression.
(I maintain the RH in my house at 45% so it was within one or two percent of the previous time. Also the temperature stays at 73 degrees).

There was a noticeable difference and I do not mean slightly noticeable. I understand a plethora of factors could have contributed to this but all 25 tests were longer by over 10 seconds.

I am not sure this test proves anything really but it was just a something I thought was interesting.

[gitnoob]

That is interesting data. I've tried to measure sustain, and it's kind of a slippery concept. When does a note die? How hard did you strum?

So I tried to use a more objective metric: the tap tone of the top. It seems to be pretty reproducible, and it's related to how stiff the top is. The stiffness changes with water content, and it's measurable. The stiffness didn't change at all with 3 days of ToneRite.

There may be several different things going on. Humidity levels differ at different locations -- even in the same room. They can differ by height in the room. Heat matters, including body heat and heat from mechanical energy.

But my favorite metaphor for ToneRite is a dog shaking its coat to toss off water.

[Jschlueter]

Originally Posted by gitnoob

That is interesting data. I've tried to measure sustain, and it's kind of a slippery concept. When does a note die? How hard did you strum?

That is part of the reason I measured each chord more than once to get an average. I let the chord ring until I could hear nothing. So maybe not exactly scientific but still has some credibility. I mean if the sustain is still ringing loudly even seconds after then that is difference that is easy to tell.

[werkout52]

I couldn't say for sure that age makes a difference till the other day when I played a well used 1964 Gibson J50 that was better in all areas to the other guitars in GC. I was amazed considering it had a adjustable bridge. The weird part was there was a 00 Bourgeois there that should be light years ahead of the Gibson, but wasn't

[zabdart]

Let's see now...
I bought my '67 Gibson J-50 in 1968. I can honestly say that after 45 years, it sounds better than I do. Does that answer your question?

[werkout52]

Originally Posted by zabdart

Let's see now...
I bought my '67 Gibson J-50 in 1968. I can honestly say that after 45 years, it sounds better than I do. Does that answer your question?

Not comparing you to guitar, but guitar to guitar. For example my Aria doesn't sound better than it did back in 74. Why do some guitars improve and others don't?

[Kevin A]

I can only speak from my own personal experience about guitars 'improving with age.' All of my custom guitars that I have ordered over the years have special qualities abut them that I truly enjoy. Each also has some distinct tonal characteristics that make each a different experience to play. Over the years of owning and playing them fairly regularly I have discerned subtle differences in the tone of some of the guitars, in particularly, the oldest of the lot, my Omega MJ.

Built in 2000-2001, this guitar has always had a sweet, pleasant tone to it, but initially I really had to 'dig in' to coax any volume from it. I played it primarily fingerstyle with occasional plectrum use. I was assured by the builder (the late Kevin Gallagher) that the top (adirondack spruce) will 'break in' overtime and begin to yield a fuller, richer tone (i.e. "improve with age").

So fast forward a number of years— Kevin was indeed correct about this guitar improving with age. The tone is now much fuller, less "tightness" (=more overtones) and it is considerably louder than it was initially. Still a sweet-sounding guitar as it always HAS been, and the top has darkened nicely over the years.