#76
|
|||
|
|||
Believe it or not, that alone will probably affect the tone. UV light exposure has a pretty significant effect on tap tone.
Again, to me the question isn't whether wood changes with age. It does. The more interesting question is why age should improve tone, and if it does, what mechanism is responsible. "Playing in" the guitar seems like a very unlikely mechanism to me.
__________________
gits: good and plenty chops: snickers |
#77
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
__________________
A bunch of guitars, a banjo, three mandos, and three ukes. |
#78
|
|||
|
|||
on a completely different note, i wonder if when a guitar is first built the fact that the wood is being contorted into it's new shape and being held together by glue puts a certain amount of tension on the guitar that tends to start relaxing as time goes by (as the wood starts to relax into it's new shape). perhaps this "relaxing" of the wood helps all the different parts couple together more harmoniously, thus a better transfer of energy from part to part.
i think i read something to this effect somewhere (perhaps in Ervin Somogyi's book?).
__________________
Bill Gennaro "Accept your lot, whatever it may be, in ultimate humbleness. Accept in humbleness what you are, not as grounds for regret but as a living challenge." Last edited by billgennaro; 04-15-2013 at 12:34 PM. |
#79
|
|||
|
|||
These threads come up on this topic now and again and it is always interesting to me. I never paid that much attention to it (guitars opening up) prior to following this forum and I've been playing since 1967. I recently got a new Taylor GS Mini Mahogony back around last thanksgiving. I just recently played it in my bedroom and mentioned to my wife "You know, this little mahogony guitar sure is sounding better and better, maybe it is true that they open up once they get played in some." I should add, however, that I have experimented and found the best strings and guitar pick that seem to work best for me on that guitar, so that should also be part of the equation. Still, I believe that the guitar top has loosened or opened up some, the guitar is not as "tight" tonewise as when I first got it.
|
#80
|
|||
|
|||
Silly Moustache wrote:
"Guitars go to sleep - if left in a fine case in an appropriate atmosphere a guitar will neither wear out not deteriorate, but it will settle down and become less resonant." and gitnoob replied" "If this is true, we need a new model of physics." Why? We can't even get everybody to agree that they 'play in', and we sure don't know why (assuming they do!), so why could there not be a mechanism that would allow for both 'playing in' and 'going to sleep'? Actually: a couple of years ago I was working up data on a project that called for multiple controlled plucks on a guitar that were recorded. It took a few minutes to set up each pluck, but I noticed that the first one or two seemed to be slightly less loud than the later ones, despite every effort to keep things the same. Since the effect was consistent over all the open strings I decided it would not hurt that study to pass it over. Later, I took the same guitar and attached a small voice coil to the saddle, which I could drive with a sweep signal from my computer. I recorded the output 'cold' after the guitar had been hanging all night. Then I looped the sweep signal for five minutes, and recorded the output again. The output 'after' was stronger than the output 'before', and particularly in the 'bass reflex' range where most of the change from 'playing in' happens in my measurements. That guitar certainly does 'warm up'. Here's one model: Wood is a structure consisting of microscopic fibers of cellulose stuck together with a mix of lignin and hemicellulose. Lignin is more or less like hot-melt glue; a 'thermoplastic' which deforms under load, and moves faster at higher temperatures. Cellulose is a 'thermosetting' resin; it won't melt or soften, but just burns if you get it too hot. Hemicellulose is not thermoplastic either, but it does break down over time into H2O and CO2. That's why old spruce tops become opaque: just like a snow bank they have lots of little air spaces, in this case where there used to be hemicellulose. Thermoplastics can be thought of as liquids in some sense; that's why they 'cold creep', and are easier to deform when you heat them above the 'glass point'. Hard candies are a common thermoplastic, and we know how they can glue themselves back together over time after they've been broken. I've seen the same thing happen in glass, when a cracked watch crystal that was under pressure from the waterproofing gasket slowly healed itself after cracking. In that case, the crack must have been tight enough to exclude water vapor. What if flexing wood created shear loads in or between the cell walls that eventually caused cracks in the lignin bonds? This could reduce the stiffness slightly, and might well increase damping (I measured a damping increase in a strip of wood I vibrated for a month once, but I never had the chance to re-do the experiment). It might be possible for some of those cracks to 'heal' if the wood was allowed to rest for a while. Older wood, with lots of small voids from hemicellulose degradation, would be less likely to 'heal', and thus would stay 'warmed up' in a sense; 'played in'. This is simply speculation at this point. It's easy enough to design the experiment to test it out, but it would take some apparatus I don't have and can't afford. The point is, really, that no new physics is needed to explain 'playing in' or 'warming up', we just need to figure out how to do the measurements to winnow out the various models that have been proposed to explain them. |
#81
|
||||
|
||||
I don't know the answer to this. I honestly think they probably DO sound better with age. But, I buy guitars for how they sound now, not what they may sound like in 20 years, or even in 20 months. So, if they get better, I'll be happy. If they don't get better, I'm still happy.
Todd
__________________
https://www.mcmakinmusic.com |
#82
|
|||
|
|||
What frustrates me about this debate is that we lump multiple phenomena and time scales into single categories like "playing in."
For example, it's perfectly plausible that a guitar changes soon after it's been built. Glue cures, finish cures, bent wood "relaxes." But this has nothing to do with playing the guitar (or tonerite). Likewise, wood goes through chemical changes with age. Nothing to do with playing. And yet it's certainly possible that there are also short-term temporary changes as well. Related perhaps to water content, or as Alan says, the thermoplastic nature of wood. But wood is pretty robust stuff. Can we really propose a mechanism for which the low energy input from plucking the strings can be sufficient to permanently change wood? I don't think so. FWIW, there have been studies of vibrational effects on wooden instruments. Yes, you can structurally change an instrument with vibrational energy, but the energy input required appears to be pretty large.
__________________
gits: good and plenty chops: snickers |
#83
|
|||
|
|||
Do guitars improve with age?
The short answer is...some do and some don't. There are so many variables, it's impossible to know what is the one single cause, if you notice an improvement in tone or volume. I could be your own eardrums, as they change over time. Or, maybe it's the strings you use now, that could be a difference type or manufacturer than what you used back in the day.
I agree that tonewoods will change over a period of time. The vibrations of the strings will after some time, begin to break down the wood fibers, making the soundboard weaker, allowing more vibration, producing a greater volume and a richer tone. But it might also be the type of bracing, as well. Scalloped bracing is known for producing richer tone and greater volume, because they allow more vibration in the soundboard from the start. Moisture content in the wood will also have a direct affect on the sounds a guitar projects, as well. If you have weaker bracing, play every day, but don't keep the instrument hydrated, it's not going to last anywhere near as long as a guitar that may take longer to "open up" because of stiffer bracing, also played often, but is kept in a moisture controlled environment. If you never play it, the tone and volume will not get better, just as old strings will not produce the volume or tone you once had. For me, I don't pay much attention to any of that, except to make sure I keep my guitars properly hydrated. I change the strings when they break, and if I really don't like the sound I am getting, I'll switch to a different guitar, or plug it into my amp, if it has a pickup. I keep a lot of spare parts around, just in case I might need something. Extra sets of strings (both steel & nylons), extra straps, extra saddles, extra nuts, 2 hygrometers, 1 hydrometer for inside the body, a couple of moisture packs for the case, extra tuners, sand paper, nut files, wire nippers, even a waterslide decal for a Martin guitar, should I ever have need of it. I've got extra pots, extra knobs, a few humbuckers and trim rings, a UST passive pickup, extra pick guards, extra bridge pins, and a bunch of tools. With my collection, I just don't have the time to wonder if the tone is improving on any of my guitars. But that's just me. If you want to worry about tone and volume, go for it! Glen
__________________
Yamaha FG-375S Jumbo Martin DXME/D-35E/DC Aura/000-14 Custom/D-16E Custom/ 000C Nylon/0000-28HE/Concept IV Jumbo/00-16C/D-4132SE Gibson LP Deluxe/ES-347 TD/Chet Atkins CE Fender MIA Deluxe Strat Art & Lutherie 12-string Bellucci Concert Sigma CR-7 Recording King ROS-06 FE3/RPH-05 D'Angelico "New Yorker" New Masters "Esperance SP" Hermosa AH-20 “I never met a guitar I didn't like.” |
#84
|
||||
|
||||
resonance
Quick answer, because I don't have time to repeat what I wrote earlier...
It is fully plausable it happens. Little vibrational energy is needed to excite something at its resonant frequency, so a tone wood that carries a resonance will vibrate a great deal from a small input. That vibration can cause microcracks in the wood's structure. If these happen gradually, they will be dispersed (insert long dissertation on crak propagation and non-uniform brittle materials). If the wood remains stiff (unplayed and unflexed) for a long time, it will dry and become more brittle, then a crack-creating force/vibration could lead to crack propagation. In other words: playing flexes the wood fibers loosening the boundaries between them microscopically, allowing for slightly more flexibility and response. It also makes the wood less susceptible to a sudden brittle playing-induced crack (which, proportionally is much less likely than an environmentally induced crack).
__________________
Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter" Taylor GC7, GA3-12, SB2-C, SB2-Cp...... Ibanez AVC-11MHx , AC-240 |
#85
|
|||
|
|||
Is there any evidence of this?
As I said, I've done an experiment that suggested nothing changes in terms of the wood's stiffness after 3 days of ToneRite. Others have studied vibrating instruments, and AFAIK, they found no effect until the vibrations were strong enough to flex the joints.
__________________
gits: good and plenty chops: snickers |
#86
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
We need to consider that our brain is the most important part here , not our ears, our ears worn out with the time, they never improve, then how can i trust in my ears when i was 30 and now for example 60, and say now my guitar sound better than 30 years before, wich one is my reference? and then the Brain start playing with us. If we close our eyes and think in a lemon, or an orange or chile habanero, then we have a water mouth, its all in my mind, and maybe when we see a vintage guitar, old, worn, and rusty, our mind plays water mouth but with guitars. We don't have any reference to say that our guitars improve with the age. |
#87
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I have experienced wondrous guitars "out of the box" and also a D45 that had been unplayed and "kept in the box" for many years - it sounded like wet cardboard - even when we put new strings on it. I also witness a pre=-war D28 which was kept as a collectors item - great condition - worth arms and legs - souded - bleaugh. It is my belief (I have no scientific back-up here) that woods dry out and settle in once made into a musical instrument and that may well help- however - I would suggest that it is not the time frame so much as the time being played that encourages a group of woods to respond better than when first built. The tonerite is an artificial way of accelerating this. but the woods in that box need to be adjusted to "learn" to resonate together, and the only way to do that - is ...to make them resonate together. Surely we have all bought a great new guitar which whilst fine feels "tight" ? Well it just needs "playing in". I rest on my case. ('cos I am old). |
|
Tags |
age, finish, guitar |
Thread Tools | |
|