Come on, can you REALLY tell if a guitar is a "dud?"

[ohYew812]

Originally Posted by Zissou Intern

And aural beauty is in the beholder's ears. We had a regular customer trade in a monster HD28LSV (red spruce top) on a significantly more expensive HD28GE (braz/Ad). When he left behind his LSV and a huge pile of greenbacks, we all thought he was nuts. The LSV was, to our ears, a better sounding guitar. The customer couldn't have been happier with the transaction. Go figure.

I wonder what his/her screen name is here?

[s2y]

Sometimes a truss rod tweak and some new strings can breathe life into a dull guitar.

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by Mark Stone

The title of your post and the first line describe two completely different situations. When shopping for a guitar, we are looking for a pleasing and (for some of us) practical tone and feel. When we find a guitar that fits our criteria, it doesn't mean that the others are "duds", it just means we found one that fits our criteria. When I got my Gibson 4 years ago, it had a great feel (action, neck shape, body size/shape) and a wonderful sound for its purpose (lead instrument in a worship band). The fact that it fit so well for its intended purpose in no way makes other guitars "duds". I think the premise of the OP is not necessarily true.

^This^. There is a big difference between finding "the one", and identifying a "dud". Some folks (including OP) have made some good points about subjectivity, condition of strings, environment in which you are playing, humidity, etc.

If you play two guitars back to back that are the same make and model in a quiet room with fresh strings, and one sounds full, and loud, and clear, and the other doesn't sound nearly as full or nearly as loud, would you call the second guitar a dud? I have had that experience, and I considered the second a dud. YMMV

I have also played 4 guitars back to back of the same make and model with fresh strings (two Collings OM2HG short scales, and two OM2HG regular scales) and the differences between them were discernible, but not very pronounced. No "duds" in my opinion, but I was able to choose one that I thought sounded better. And most of the time, the one I chose still sounds incredible to me...though I hasten to acknowledge that there are days when SOMETHING makes it sound "not so good". Don't know if I am hearing humidity changes, or my ears have something going on, or I am just in a bad mood, or I have altered my attack in some way that is out of my awareness...but there are days when something sounds off, and perhaps the next day, it is back to "all good". So yes, there are subjective changes in perception, and IMO there are discernible "objective" differences in the sound of two guitars.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by 3317

...but one company that I find consistent across the board would be Taylor. Which to me is a good thing about Taylor and it shows how well they are thought out and built.

In my experience, yes- and no.

In terms of "consistency" a Taylor pretty much sounds like a Taylor. You pretty much know what to expect. But the key phrase is "pretty much". As one example, just last week I was in the presence of two 2016 814ce's. One sounded great. The other sounded muddy, the sound being somewhat ill defined. Another example was when I had the opportunity to play three 214's... two standard and one deluxe. I preferred one of the standards over its twin AND the deluxe, while I preferred the Deluxe over the least preferred of the three.

So in that regard I don't find Taylor any more consistent than Martin. Gibson? Another story, particularly with their electrics.

JMO

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

How do you separate the things that make it a real"dud" from the things that can be easily corrected (strings, relief, action, etc.)?

Because the word "Dud" is subjective and tightly coupled to expectations. If a $4000 guitar doesn't sound really good, some might call it a dud. If a $200 guitar sounded the same, some might call it a "find".

Beyond that, some guitars sound like crap when all those things are to your liking. And some guitars sound so bad, none of that matters.

I would be surprised if many D-18's were duds. I've run across a couple of GE's that I wouldn't take if you gave them to me. But they were the wild exception.

[Dondoh]

I have no real opinion myself on the OP's question.
If you fast forward this video to 1:04:45 there is a fairly experienced opinion on this. I was surprised this idea made it into Martin's official video to be quite honest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4Upp16iqow

[jmjohnson]

I'd say yes, but mostly only if I have something I can A/B.

Bought a D-28, a few days later store got an HD-28 - better looking but definitely did not sound nearly as good as the D-28 (swapped em anyway and thankfully the HD woke up after a few weeks, but I struggled with it - had a nice sounding Guild to compare to so I knew when it got better).

NOS D-28 Marquis in 1 store I made the mistake of trying out - just LOVED the tone; while trying to decide if I wanted to dump the $$, went to another branch and tried their new Marquis - 1st one was way better...went back and traded for it.

A couple others I couldn't pick out a true winner when contemplating a trade-in, till someone cranked up the outside music playing in the background and I could suddenly hear more' with one over the other (GPC vs OM21).

Why I NEED to have more then 1 at all times!

[tippy5]

Shopping wise I have a fast way to check acoustics.
I have a way of browsing the GC acoustic room quickly without taking down the guitars.
I steady the side of the guitar with my left hand and gently strum the guitar up above with my right.
If I hear anything interesting I bring it down to try (And hope the strings are not crusty).
It could be a blues box, a cutaway Cort, or a CS Martin.

There is an acoustic shop in town that keeps the plus $1,500 guitars up in back of the counter so that is a different screening procedure.

I guess you can refer to the ones that don't spark my interest as "duds" but there is probably a better term.
This is a quick process and I am sure there have been many that I missed their offerings.

[RP]

Sometimes I find it hard to see how one can even tell a guitar from a banjo, let alone a good guitar from a dud when things are really hopping at Guitar Center. Of course there are those magical times when pesky kids and loud playing/singing adults are at the park, the movies or watching sports on TV. That's clearly a whole different thing. However, I'd agree with Mark Stone, people usually go looking for "THE ONE" nice sounding/playing guitar not the poor sounding/playing one. Having said this, the skeptical me always looks askance at a FOR SALE ad when the seller recounts how many guitars he/she auditioned before selecting the very one that's now for sale...

[TD2]

Originally Posted by 3317

I believe with Martin and Gibson that yes your more likely to run through 25 and one will touch you unlike the rest but one company that I find consistent across the board would be Taylor. Which to me is a good thing about Taylor and it shows how well they are thought out and built.

+1 Yes. Every Martin I've played isn't what I'm looking for. Taylor and Larivee have always sounded great to me.

[rmyAddison]

I agree with the comment that "dud" is very broad brush and "relative", yes you should expect an expensive guitar to sound really good, give it a higher benchmark to live up to.

My buying days are mostly behind me, pretty much at the top of Martin's food chain, and I'm very grateful for the guitars I have, but one thing anybody can do at any price point is the very valuable "A/B".

If you absolutely fall in love with a guitar and know you won't change your mind a week later buy it. Otherwise, and I never had a store (including GCs) say no if you're a serious shopper/buyer, take one of your guitars an do a A/B.

Not so much to eliminate "duds", they should be more obvious, but to compare with an instrument you know inside out, like enough that you own it, and have a real benchmark.

A bit of a sidebar, but A/B's with one of your instruments has sure worked for me over the years, and can save money "Oh, it really isn't better than what I have...." Happy shopping.....

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

I read tons of posts of people saying they tried 25 different D-28's or 50 different J-45's until they found "the one."

I'm curious, can you really tell just by playing a guitar for a few minutes in a guitar store? It seems to me that there are too many variables, strings, setup, room acoustics, humidity, etc. to be able to dismiss a guitar right off the bat.

I can see that if a guitar has a warped neck or the neck angle is wrong or it has loose braces and it's going to need major repairs that a trained eye would be able to notice that.

How do you separate the things that make it a real"dud" from the things that can be easily corrected (strings, relief, action, etc.)?

I was shopping for a D-18 recently and they all seemed pretty much the same to me, except for the crustiness of the strings. I finally got one when the owner of the store made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

Well "a dud" needs some context. When acoustic players call out an specific guitar as a dud, that means based on their past experiences with good sounding versions of the instrument the specific one being compared doesn't measure up. It absolutely is a real thing, but as with anything when it comes to tone, there is a lot of room for subjectivity.

So how does a guitar become a dud?

New guitars become duds due to inconsistent manufacturing techniques or perhaps even poor environmental conditions by the retailer (rare, but I suppose possible). It could be horrible factory setup, cosmetic defects or a thin or too muffled sound.... Vintage guitars are another story. Duds are very common with vintage acoustic guitars and comes down to poor care of the instrument over the years. They could be repairable damage or it could be something more perm. The amount of moisture in the wood is exposed to over the years impacts its density. In the right conditions it will loose moisture (at a safe rate) and become lighter, harder and this results in a sound most vintage seekers are looking for. If it absorbs too much it can become heavier and sound more muffled. This is usually undesirable.

But dealers know these are subjective things and also know the price set on vintage guitars has only to do with the physical cosmetic condition of the instrument. If you have a 1942 J-45 Banner that is all original and looks in near mint condition, even if it sounds horrible it will still be worth a small fortune. For poor sounding vintage Martin's it can get even more ridiculous.

People are willing to pay high prices regardless of tone because 1.) Many collectors with deep pockets are just as concerned with the historic value as the tone. They don't plan to play the instrument on a stage anyway. In this regard even old dud vintage acoustics are highly valuable because like stamps, coins, guns, etc... They have historic value. 2.) Many collectors with deep pockets don't have the most discerning ears and wouldn't really know a good guitar from a great one. They trust the linear progression of consumerism and the mantra "the more you spend the better product you get". In the collectors context this is true. But for the musician, guitars are like paint brushes and once you get past quality construction and quality core materials it's just a matter of paying for finer details, etc... An inexpensive 000-15 costing $1200 could be a more appropriate instrument for your craft than a $9,000 Martin OM-45 from the authentic line.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

I read tons of posts of people saying they tried 25 different D-28's or 50 different J-45's until they found "the one."

I'm curious, can you really tell just by playing a guitar for a few minutes in a guitar store? It seems to me that there are too many variables, strings, setup, room acoustics, humidity, etc. to be able to dismiss a guitar right off the bat.


How do you separate the things that make it a real"dud" from the things that can be easily corrected (strings, relief, action, etc.)?

I agree that these are 2 different situations, finding the one and identifying a dud. Strings, particularly, make such a big difference. I couldn't confidently tell if a guitar is bad, because better strings or set up might improve it, but I can definitely tell if a guitar sounds really good. If someone wants to sell me an expensive guitar, they'd best put good strings on it, at least.

[Pitar]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

I read tons of posts of people saying they tried 25 different D-28's or 50 different J-45's until they found "the one."

I'm curious, can you really tell just by playing a guitar for a few minutes in a guitar store? It seems to me that there are too many variables, strings, setup, room acoustics, humidity, etc. to be able to dismiss a guitar right off the bat.

I can see that if a guitar has a warped neck or the neck angle is wrong or it has loose braces and it's going to need major repairs that a trained eye would be able to notice that.

How do you separate the things that make it a real"dud" from the things that can be easily corrected (strings, relief, action, etc.)?

I was shopping for a D-18 recently and they all seemed pretty much the same to me, except for the crustiness of the strings. I finally got one when the owner of the store made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

No variables.

Dead strings are a cultured familiarity if you have some experience (ear training) under your belt. I can listen through dead strings to hear the quality of the guitar well enough to know whether putting new strings on is a worthwhile effort or not. Otherwise, a dud is a dud. The only thing I cannot listen through is a elevated RH, on a guitar in isolation from all others, but if in a room full of choices then, yes, the playing field is level even with elevated RH and the duds identify themselves quickly.

Honestly, with all those guitars in your sig I'm pretty surprised you would be asking this question, assuming your quantity speaks to an experienced capacity to make such simple ear judgements.

I can blindly single out a Gibson correctly pretty much every time I've been challenged or challenged myself. The one time I failed I was half right because the guy testing me played a J45 followed by a J35. I identified the J45 as the Gibson. The J35 was a pleasant surprise because to my ear every A/B comparison pushes the Gibson product to the dud side of the spectrum. Again, I'm told by all the experts that I don't have an appreciation for the Gibson sound so we'll leave that right there.

So, yes, anyone with experience and a developed ear can identify the duds in a heartbeat, and the variables suggested to defeat such a notion don't hold water. Hearing is hearing and distinctive sounds are such that no set of bad strings will make that big a sonic quality difference.

[fatt-dad]

. . . as a thought experiment, I believe the following:

Go buy a Martin OM-28, or some x14 series Taylor (they're versatile).
Learn to play it and stay off the Internet. Just learn.
Use that guitar for all campfires, camping trips, hayrides, talent shows, etc.
Collect stories.
Let 10 years pass. . .

Now go shopping again. Want something different? Heck, they'll all be different!

Abandon your original guitar? I doubt it!

My L-1 Gibson is that guitar for me.
After 10 years, my 914 is falling nicely into second place.

I've played exactly one OM-28A and I bought it. If it's a dud, don't tell me! I love it!

We have a lot of choices. Make one and stick to it!

f-d