Come on, can you REALLY tell if a guitar is a "dud?"

[The Bard Rocks]

There are some guitars so bad that anyone would call them a dud. And there are some so good that anyone would call them stellar. But in-between is where the vast majority lie and there's where the many variables come into play on deciding how good they are.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

...I'm curious, can you really tell just by playing a guitar for a few minutes in a guitar store....

In a word, "yes."


I can't tell if one is a GREAT guitar. It has to be a great guitar under all conditions to be "great". To determine that, I have to test it under different conditions.

But one that flops under a certain condition is disqualified.

So, yes, I can detect failure but I can't quickly detect passage.

[JeffreyAK]

I dunno, I don't think I've ever met a guitar I didn't like in some ways, at least among quality guitars that don't have basic flaws like washboard frets, warped neck, bad intonation, won't stay in tune, etc. Some I like much more than others, but if I play the same guitar in different places, or on different days, it'll sound a bit different to my ears. All you can do, when sampling guitars in a shop, is make a judgement and go with it, knowing that there will be times later when you won't be as happy with it. But at least, on that day and in that place, you were happiest with that guitar.

[Hurricane Bob]

An 1980's Martin D-28 came in to the store I was working at, it was a total dud, dead to the world, sounded like mud. Maybe it had sat for years in a case and lost its mojo? and could it come back and sound good after being played for a while?

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by rmyAddison

Experience sometimes is undervalued.

True that.

I think a difference has to be declared between a "dud" and one's aural preferences. And while there is a fine line between them perhaps aural preference has to be considered and consequently in some cases brand comes into to play. As an example, I get what Waterloo is trying to do. But Waterloo is so far out of my sonic wheelhouse that I'm not even going to try to judge them. But as Rich pointed out, if you play enough guitars you know basically what to expect from them.

Having said that, I can usually spot a "dud" in two or three strums. Those first few strums are the instrument's opportunity to earn the right for me to play it further. At a certain point I'll have enough information to pretty much to form a basic opinion. Having more than one unit of the same make/model helps too because there are variables from instrument to instrument, some subtle, some significant.

Having played so many guitars over the years, it takes quite a bit to give me gas these days. Only one more acoustic that I've got my radar turned on for; the right (used) Gibson SJ-200 (in any flavor for a reasonable used price).

[3317]

I believe with Martin and Gibson that yes your more likely to run through 25 and one will touch you unlike the rest but one company that I find consistent across the board would be Taylor. Which to me is a good thing about Taylor and it shows how well they are thought out and built.

[mickthemiller]

I can certainly feel if a guitar is for me after playing a few chords. I have bought guitars that I have instantly fell for, and often let them go after some time enjoying them and I have bought some guitars that I thought would grow on me and that I would learn to love. The latter don't last long at all before they are on their way out. So yes, you can tell a dud. It's just that sometimes you have to trust your instinct and not buy one that feels even slightly not right for you.

[mercy]

Dud = dull lifeless, thuddy etc. Yes.

[Bronsky]

Go to your local store and try some of the fender paramount guitars.
Every time I've been to a store that had three or more of those, at least one was a dud ; unresponsive, heavy, dead sounding.

A guy came to my place once to buy my Furch dread.
He brought his Gibson j185 with him to compare.
Neither him nor I could coaxe a decent sound out of that Gibson.
It sounded muddy, unmusical, and the volume was so low compared to the furch.

I have never questioned the existence of duds.
What I do question (in fact I'm pretty much convinced it's an internet myth) is those "cheap guitars that sound like guitars many times the price"
If you believe forums like this one, it sounds like almost everyone owns such a magical instrument, but in the real world, I've never come across a sub 1k guitar that sounded or played even close to a custom shop or small builder (let alone luthier) instrument. And that includes my Eastman, despite all the raving reviews the brand gets.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

I'm curious, can you really tell just by playing a guitar for a few minutes in a guitar store? It seems to me that there are too many variables, strings, setup, room acoustics, humidity, etc. to be able to dismiss a guitar right off the bat.

Not to mention the variability of a persons own hearing. I suffer from allergies, for example. Sometimes it seems as if I have cotton stuffed into my ears.

Nevertheless, the answer to your question is "yes."

Because with experience one learns to account for the variables. I know when my own hearing is "off." I can look at strings, assess the room, the guitar's setup, etc. Most guitars don't get past a plucking of the 4th or 5th string. I can also count on one hand the number of times that I have bought a guitar the first time that I played it. The times that I did, I've usually been disappointed over the longer term. Most of the time it was still there when I went back the next day.

All that said, one must also learn to be able to tell the difference between a great guitar and "my" great guitar.

TW

[muscmp]

Originally Posted by Mark Stone

The title of your post and the first line describe two completely different situations. When shopping for a guitar, we are looking for a pleasing and (for some of us) practical tone and feel. When we find a guitar that fits our criteria, it doesn't mean that the others are "duds", it just means we found one that fits our criteria. When I got my Gibson 4 years ago, it had a great feel (action, neck shape, body size/shape) and a wonderful sound for its purpose (lead instrument in a worship band). The fact that it fit so well for its intended purpose in no way makes other guitars "duds". I think the premise of the OP is not necessarily true.

i would wholeheartedly agree with mark on this.

i went thru the process of playing several 00018ge guitars before i found the one that sang to me the best. does that mean the others were duds? of course not, i probably would have been happy with any of the others but feel i was lucky to have those choices.

play music!

[Mickey_C]

I have not seen any higher end Martin duds. I've heard some stiff ones, but I know the differences in bracings... and tbh, I like that sounds sometimes too. But I wouldn't call them a dud, not by a long stretch.

And I think the role of strings is highly underrated. Any guitar I am truly interested in I ask them to put on some DR Rares or other string which I am well acquainted with, so I can have one less variable (even though the strings are new). I don't mind paying for a set of strings to see if I want to shell out a few thousand dollars for a guitar. That's easy.

But I've seen so many slope Gibson "duds" I couldn't even count them - but there's all these different models, value points, different places they are made... lousy paint, finish issues, it just goes on and on. And then, bam, you get one that drips magic tone. So that's the flip side on the Gibson.. some of them are stellar.

But they aren't $4000 guitars either, built my Martin skill level luthiers.

So I am going to say yeah, I've seen some duds, some genuine fretted firewood, some of it really pretty too.

I've heard somebody say they see HD-28 or HD-35 duds. I've seen some that need some setup and new strings, and maybe some humidity control, but never have I seen one of those that was a genuine dud.

[Looburst]

Impossible, it's just impossible to try and explain to the untrained ear what each person is looking for in an instrument. If you're a bluegrass player, you're looking for one thing, if you're strictly playing rock, you're looking for something else and so on.
Ear education is something you just can't pick up quickly, it comes only after years of playing and listening.

[ohYew812]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

I read tons of posts of people saying they tried 25 different D-28's or 50 different J-45's until they found "the one."

I'm curious, can you really tell just by playing a guitar for a few minutes in a guitar store? It seems to me that there are too many variables, strings, setup, room acoustics, humidity, etc. to be able to dismiss a guitar right off the bat.

I can see that if a guitar has a warped neck or the neck angle is wrong or it has loose braces and it's going to need major repairs that a trained eye would be able to notice that.

How do you separate the things that make it a real"dud" from the things that can be easily corrected (strings, relief, action, etc.)?

I was shopping for a D-18 recently and they all seemed pretty much the same to me, except for the crustiness of the strings. I finally got one when the owner of the store made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

I agree that within brands, they all pretty much have the same sound, assuming same tone woods, no structural issues, and have decent strings.

[Zissou Intern]

I worked in a shop for about 6 years. At one point we had five HD28V models in stock. They were all nice and anyone would've taken any of them as a great guitar when played individually. But, when you played them relative to one another, back to back, one of them was clearly a beast, and one of them was slightly distant off the back of the pack.

Having said that, there were many guitars from al the builders we carried: Martin, SCGC, Bourgeois, Collings, and Guild, that sounded better or worse from time to time. I'd not play a guitar for several weeks or months and come back to it, and would think- This thing is sounding great! or This is not as good as I remember! I know that there are numerous factors involved in an instrument's tonal output.

And aural beauty is in the beholder's ears. We had a regular customer trade in a monster HD28LSV (red spruce top) on a significantly more expensive HD28GE (braz/Ad). When he left behind his LSV and a huge pile of greenbacks, we all thought he was nuts. The LSV was, to our ears, a better sounding guitar. The customer couldn't have been happier with the transaction. Go figure.