Tempo in 6/8 Question

[musicman1951]

Originally Posted by Pine

GP7 has a built-in time signature for 6/8. It knows to beam the eighth notes into two groups of 3. With the tempo set at 77BPM in GP7, playback is at 53-54BPM according the "tap tempo" app on my phone. As others have said, GP7 may be treating each eighth note as a beat or something. I'll try their tech support.

If it has 6/8 time and eighth notes as the metronome unit you probably want to be in the neighborhood of 8th=162. If you've got the beat at 54 those are dotted quarter notes. Triple that and you'll have your 8th note tempo (162).

Or you can write it in 2/4 or 4/4 at 54 - but that will require a page full of triplets (don't know if your program will do that).

It's likely that your program is counting 8th notes in 6/8. If you set the tempo to 162 it should work fine (unless you have to listen to a metronome, in which case it will drive you crazy).

[rick-slo]

4/4 = four quarter notes per measure where each quarter note = one beat.
6/8 = six eighth notes per measure where each eighth note = one beat.
Pretty simple.

[vindibona1]

If I understand the question correctly it is about setting the tempo in Guitar Pro. When in 6/8 time you have to determine if the tempo is based on 8th notes or dotted quarters. IMO HOTRS tempo would best be written as 8th=XX(I suggest around 100-110 bpm).So you need to change the value of the beat and the beats per minute.

[Erithon]

Originally Posted by Pine

Thank you for this explanation. I remember reading this somewhere in my theory books, but it didn't mean much at the time. Hearing and attempting to put it into notation really brings it home.

GP7 has a built-in time signature for 6/8. It knows to beam the eighth notes into two groups of 3. With the tempo set at 77BPM in GP7, playback is at 53-54BPM according the "tap tempo" app on my phone. As others have said, GP7 may be treating each eighth note as a beat or something. I'll try their tech support.

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond. I'm learning a lot!

Thanks again,
Craig

You're welcome

By all means call tech support so you can figure out the dotted quarter note tempo setting, but as an immediate fix first try setting the tempo to 115.5 (as cmd612 suggested). The conversion ratio from 6/8 to 4/4 and vice versa is 2:3 and 3:2, respectively. 77 x 3 / 2 = 115.5 and in reverse: 115.5 / 3 x 2 = 77.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by Erithon

Not quite. Although both 3/4 and 6/8 have 6 8th notes overall, the accents (beats) fall in different places: in 3/4 you count 1+2+3+ (say "and" on the +) because there are 3 beats of 2; in 6/8 you count 1 2 3 4 5 6 stressing the 1 and 4 because there are 2 beats of 3.

True that.
But I wasn't addressing that at all, i.e. the difference between 3/4 and 6/8.
The point of my post was to show that House Of the Rising Sun, in all the printed scores I've come across, as the one below that I attached:



is shown as 3/4 time. Looking at the score, or that one anyway, it certainly fits 3/4 counting.
6/8 to me often has that "triplet" feel, counted internally as 2 beats per measure, which I don't think goes well with House.
3/4 seems better suited.
That's all I was saying. (imo).

[musicman1951]

It depends on the version of the song. I did find a Leadbelly video that had the 3/4 feel, one from the Sons of Anarchy that felt like 2/4, and a bunch that felt like 6/8 (12/8, or 4/4 with triplets on every beat).

I grew up with the Animals version, so I always hear it in 6/8.

If you know "America" from West Side Story you know the difference between the feel of 6/8 and 3/4.

(6/8) I like to be in A-/ (3/4) mer-i-ca

They might both have six 8th notes to a measure, but they don't feel at all the same.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by AndreF

True that.
But I wasn't addressing that at all, i.e. the difference between 3/4 and 6/8.
The point of my post was to show that House Of the Rising Sun, in all the printed scores I've come across, as the one below that I attached:



is shown as 3/4 time. Looking at the score, or that one anyway, it certainly fits 3/4 counting.

It does, but that score is wrong. The song is definitely in 6/8, clearly two beats in each bar.
I.e., the score is right in terms of bars and notes, and the notes are beamed correctly for 3/4 - but the song is not in 3/4. If you're counting 3 beats per bar, you're counting a cross-rhythm.

The notes should be beamed in two groups: eg in bar 1, the 0-2-2-1 going up is beat one, and the 0-1-2 coming down is beat two.

Originally Posted by AndreF

6/8 to me often has that "triplet" feel, counted internally as 2 beats per measure

Right...

Originally Posted by AndreF

, which I don't think goes well with House.

You hear it differently from most other people in that case.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Pine

Thank you for this explanation. I remember reading this somewhere in my theory books, but it didn't mean much at the time. Hearing and attempting to put it into notation really brings it home.

GP7 has a built-in time signature for 6/8. It knows to beam the eighth notes into two groups of 3. With the tempo set at 77BPM in GP7, playback is at 53-54BPM according the "tap tempo" app on my phone. As others have said, GP7 may be treating each eighth note as a beat or something. I'll try their tech support.

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond. I'm learning a lot!

Thanks again,
Craig

The tempo of House of the Rising Sun - judged by this anyway - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A-4VGfx5lU - is 82 bpm. That should also be the natural tap tempo.

That's 2 beats per bar in 6/8, the beat value being a dotted quarter.

6/8 
BEATS:X        X        X        X        X        X        X        X
     |Am               |C                |D                |F      
     |1  &  a  2  &  a |1  &  a  2  &  a |1  &  a  2  &  a |1  &  a  2  &  a |   
There is             a house          in New Orleans                      They

For reference, in case the software is confused, that's equivalent to 123 for quarter notes (3 per bar), 246 for the 8th notes.

77 bpm is obviously a little slower than 82, but the song would work well at that speed too. I.e., I think GP7 is right!
I can't really figure where your 53-54 is coming from... although it's roughly the speed of a half-note (when 77 is the dotted quarter). You would have to be tapping the 1st and 5th 8th note in the first bar and the 3rd 8th in the next bar! IOW, three equal beats over the space of two bars.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by JonPR

It does, but that score is wrong. The song is definitely in 6/8, clearly two beats in each bar.
I.e., the score is right in terms of bars and notes, and the notes are beamed correctly for 3/4 - but the song is not in 3/4. If you're counting 3 beats per bar, you're counting a cross-rhythm.

The notes should be beamed in two groups: eg in bar 1, the 0-2-2-1 going up is beat one, and the 0-1-2 coming down is beat two.
Right... You hear it differently from most other people in that case.

OK, looking at your line, with guitar in hand:

The notes should be beamed in two groups: eg in bar 1, the 0-2-2-1 going up is beat one, and the 0-1-2 coming down is beat two.

I agree. I definitely feel it internally as 2 beats as well, both coming on the open notes (low A and high E).
It naturally falls that way actually, so I agree that it is 6/8, and I stand corrected.
What troubles me though is that I looked at that score time signature, and just figured it was right. Meanwhile, with a guitar in hand it just naturally fell as the Animals recorded it, i.e. in 6/8, accenting those 2 beats.
Well, at least my internal playing "clock" was right. Just not my eyes.
Thank you for your post!

[jessupe]

it should be sounded off as

123,456, 123,456

while 123,123.123 is 3/4

6/8 and 3/4 are very similar....but if you say them outloud in rapid succession, you will hear/feel the difference in tempo

[Erithon]

Originally Posted by AndreF

I agree. I definitely feel it internally as 2 beats as well, both coming on the open notes (low A and high E).
It naturally falls that way actually, so I agree that it is 6/8, and I stand corrected.
What troubles me though is that I looked at that score time signature, and just figured it was right.
Well, at least my internal playing "clock" was right. Just not my eyes.

Yes, you've hit the nail on the head! I should have clarified in my earlier correction that while the note of that score were correct, the time signature was wrong. It's certainly something to be wary of when pulling scores off the internet, but at the same time, it sounds like your internal rhythm is working just fine--far more trustworthy than some digital score

Originally Posted by JonPR

I can't really figure where your 53-54 is coming from... although it's roughly the speed of a half-note (when 77 is the dotted quarter).

It comes from 77 / 3 x 2 = ~51/52 BPM. See post #19.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Erithon

It comes from 77 / 3 x 2 = ~51/52 BPM. See post #19.

Actually your post said:

The conversion ratio from 6/8 to 4/4 and vice versa is 2:3 and 3:2, respectively. 77 x 3 / 2 = 115.5 and in reverse: 115.5 / 3 x 2 = 77.

That's correct - so, where does "~51/52" come from? It's not half 115.5!
It's close, which is what I meant by the half-note value. It would be 57.75 from those figures.

IOW, for an 8th note rate of 231, the metre bpms work out as:
4/4, 3/4 or 2/4 = 115.5
6/8 (or 9/8 or 12/8) = 77
2/2 (or 3/2 or 4/2) = 58(ish)

I still don't get how Pine got the 53-54 tap tempo (from a 6/8 piece playing at 77). I'd personally find it very counter-intuitive to tap the half-notes from a 6/8 tune, especially when the chords are changing every bar with the repeated arp pattern.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by jessupe

it should be sounded off as

123,456, 123,456

while 123,123.123 is 3/4

6/8 and 3/4 are very similar....but if you say them outloud in rapid succession, you will hear/feel the difference in tempo

Yes, but there's a couple of issues.

A slow 6/8 can often be counted as two bars of 3/4: "1-2-3, 1-2-3". What would make it 6/8 (or possibly 6/4) is the different accent on the second "1". I.e., the 3-beat bars fall naturally into pairs, making 6-beat bars. "1-2-3, 2-2-3", or "1-2-3-4-5-6".

But true 6/8 is only two beats: "1 and a 2 and a" - however slow it is. IOW, if you're counting "1 2 3, 4 5 6", and you're feeling that as six beats, that feels quite fast. So 6/4 is probably better.
Counting House of the Rising Sun as "123,456" feels way too fast. The beat is clearly two triplets in the bar: "1 and a 2 and a". That's what makes it 6/8 and not 6/4 (nor a pair of 3/4 bars).

The second issue is the confusion between 6/8 and 3/4 when the bars are the same length (same 8th note value and tempo). Then it's the difference between "1 and a 2 and a" and "1 and 2 and 3 and", which is indeed a very different feel.
IOW, this difference is more obvious in terms of the feel of the music: the speed of the count is different, but it's really about the beat divisions.

In short, when we count, we should be counting beats - at a tempo that feels right for the song (fast, medium or slow) - and not the 8th notes. The beat we count might be simple (x/4, beats dividing into two 8ths) or it might be compound (x/8, beats dividing into triplets).

[Gitfiddlemann]

In short, when we count, we should be counting beats - at a tempo that feels right for the song

Yes JonPR. When I play, that's how I feel the pulse too. That's why my own light bulb went on when I went through House with a guitar in hand, and realized that 3/4 was not the way it is played. It was clearly 2 beats. And 6/8.
Just this morning, I was going through a piece marked [3/4 6/8], but in actual fact, I was counting beats across a few measures, so my internal rhythm was set more like 3/2, with beats coming down on half-notes.
So, I guess the marked time signature serves more as guiding information, rather than an absolute truth.
As Erithon noted, our internal rhythms are often more accurate than a marked score.

[cmd612]

Originally Posted by JonPR

I still don't get how Pine got the 53-54 tap tempo (from a 6/8 piece playing at 77).

Because Guitar Pro apparently by default assigns a quarter note to be one beat. It's playing the song at 77 quarter notes per minute, even though that's not how beats normally are counted in 6/8.

Pine is tapping dotted quarters, which makes perfect sense in 6/8 time. At the speed Guitar Pro is playing the song back, that comes to "about 55" dotted quarters per minute, which is what Pine said he's getting.

edit: I just found the Guitar Pro 7 user guide online. It includes the following language about tempo:

Notes can have different durations. A note’s duration is not expressed in seconds, but as a multiple of the tempo. A quarter note is one beat. The tempo is expressed in bpm (beats per minute). So if the tempo is 60, a quarter note lasts 1 second. If the tempo is 120, the quarter note is 1⁄2 second.

I didn't find anything about changing it to assign a different note as the beat.