ToneDexter 2 - initial thoughts and reviews

[JimLin]

I received my Tone Dexter 2 last week. I was able to get a few IRs that sound good through an Elctro-Voice ZLX powered 12" speaker. I'm looking forward to testing it out on a gig tomorrow.

[omahascott]

Hi all, just set up my AGF account to ask a couple ToneDexter questions.

Question 1: Would the ToneDexter II allow me to use several different guitars, each with their own wave map, EQ, and level settings, into a single PA channel? Some of the guitars have onboard preamps, and others do not (one has the Ultratonic). I would love to simplify my setup.

Question 2: If I have a looper in the effects loop and engage the boost, can it be set to not boost the loop?

Thanks in advance!
-Scott

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by omahascott

Hi all, just set up my AGF account to ask a couple ToneDexter questions.



Question 1: Would the ToneDexter II allow me to use several different guitars, each with their own wave map, EQ, and level settings, into a single PA channel? Some of the guitars have onboard preamps, and others do not (one has the Ultratonic). I would love to simplify my setup.

Yessir- you can save each guitar’s WM and EQs as presets (up to 32) and scroll between them with the foot switches or external switches. I just bought a Boss FS-7 and it works great for this purpose. I played Christmas Eve with two different guitars and it was slick and easy to swap between them and their Wavemaps.

I don’t quite know the answer definitively, and haven’t tested this theory, but the boost configuration will change which outputs the boost is applied to. And there’s an Aux Out that appears to be configurable to output only the FX return.

So combining those two things may allow a non-boostable FX signal and a boostable wavemap signal from the guitar to be output separately. You’d have to sort out how you want to combine those two signals.

[James May]

Originally Posted by omahascott

Question 2: If I have a looper in the effects loop and engage the boost, can it be set to not boost the loop?

Thanks in advance!
-Scott

ToneDexter II can't combine a boosted and a non-boosted signal together. But there is a pretty simple workaround: send both the the Main output and the DI output to the same PA and mix them both together. On TD II, set Main Out as pre-FX (pre looper), boosted, and set DI Out as post-FX (post looper), unboosted. Voila!

[omahascott]

Thanks to both of you for the quick replies! Sounds like I need to get my hands on a TDII!

[SpruceTop]

I just received my ToneDexter II and will play with it this long weekend--Excited!

[Larrison]

In case anyone else is wanting to use a foot switch with their TDII- the Boss FS-7 works perfectly as a preset scroller. I used a TRS cable out of the TDII into the A+B side of the FS-7. The side switches are set to momentary mode and polarity II. You’ll have to power the FS-7 in this config.

[Ryan Stanford]

All, I posted a similar thread at the Talkbass forums here. I’ll be using my tonedexter 2 for both guitar and bass and will be monitoring both forums.

[MarkLauden]

After using the ToneDexter II for a couple of weeks at home, I had my first full-band rehearsal with it today...

I was playing an Eastman E20-OM with a K&K Pure Mini, through the TD to a Fishman Loudbox Artist. I didn't mention it to the band. After a couple of songs, the bass player said, "wait a second, where's your guitar mic?" i said I was using the K&K, and he didn't believe me. "You can't get an amplified acoustic guitar to sound like that without a microphone." The other guitarist agreed.

So I showed them the TD, and played it with and without the bypass. The difference is pretty dramatic, if you have an ear for tone. As we rehearsed, I was pretty amazed at how good our sound was without the tinny sound of an SBT, as good as the K&K is. It makes a difference, even if the audience may not be aware of it. Our rehearsal recording confirmed that the sound was about as good as the guitar with a microphone.

I experimented with different wavemaps, using different mics and positions. I keep finding better combinations as I get more practice. I've also learned to dial in the feedback suppression – the TD tools for this are the best I've ever used.

I also have the impression that strings make a difference in wavemaps, though I haven't seen this documented anywhere. My Eastman and Martin 00-28 have the same Martin Lifespan strings, but the Eastman's are 6 months old (these last a long time) and they sound great through the TD. The Martin strings are new, and they still sound new, a bit brassy. And the wavemaps also sound a little brassy. I'll make now ones when it settles in.

As someone who is uncomfortable performing with an acoustic guitar that sounds "electrified," rather than sounding as rich as I know the instrument really sounds, the ToneDexter II has really changed the game for me. Since I have three guitars with SBT pickups, it's not too hard for me to justify the expense.

[aschroeder]

I received my Tonedexter II a couple days ago, but wasn't able to test it out until tonight. I'll give my one word review... Wow.

I've never used a Tondexter pedal before. I am always a skeptic, so I went into this test prepared to be underwhelmed. But the TDII fully lives up to the hype. I have a small condenser microphone I ordered delivering tomorrow that I haven't even tried out yet. Amazingly the very first IR I recorded was my best one. And it was with a large condenser microphone which I've heard is not ideal for the Tonedexter. So I can't wait to try out the small condenser mic.

All of my initial IRs were recorded with my Applegate SJ using a K&K mini pickup. I have a huge problem with the pickup feeding back as it has massive low end frequencies coming through the K&K. I was hoping the Tonedexter would help cure my feedback issues.

I recorded in several different mic positions, but had the best luck in the lower position pointing up to the sound hole. It also sounded good when recorded at the nut position angled toward the sound hole. After recording eight IRs with the large condenser and my SM58 vocal mic in various positions, four of them that sounded pretty good.

When I ran the IRs through my PA there was an obvious winner. It sounded like my guitar was mic'd! I couldn't believe how close it was to my unplugged tone. I had asked earlier in this post if future software updates would ever allow 3rd party IR uploads. I retract that question as I won't need 3rd party IRs with the results I'm hearing in my initial recordings. At louder volumes through my PA it did start to feedback (but way more feedback resistant with the IR compared to the straight pickup). So I messed around with the feedback reducer and notch filter and knocked out the feedback at 100 Hz.

Like the original model, the TDII is built like a tank. And the new style knobs are very solid and have a great feel as they click when you turn them. So without even looking at the screen you can feel how far you've adjusted it. With a push on the knobs they detent like a button to take you into different menus. The screen is bright and very easy to see what you're doing. The Tonedexter eliminates two pedals on my board and greatly simplifies my setup.

Very user-friendly and produced incredible results for me so far. Kudos, James.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by aschroeder

…Amazingly the very first IR I recorded was my best one. And it was with a large condenser microphone which I've heard is not ideal for the Tonedexter. So I can't wait to try out the small condenser mic.

Hi aschroeder…
Experimenting is the key. The goal for me is to have my guitar sound like my guitar when played live. But live in a band is different than solo on stage. I fully expect the live-band mix to chop the bottom (Low Pass) and compress me a bit so I hold a steady place in the mix versus my wide dynamic changes playing solo.

I've pulled Wave Maps with everything from SM-57/58, Peluso CEMC6 (unidirectional and omni capsules), AKG 414 (omni and unidirectional), Shure KSM-44, and Rode NT-3.

I recorded them in a neutral environment (without room noise) from 18"-16" out from the neck/body joint (level with neck), from 3rd fret out aimed at the same joint, from same distance out from the neck. I sit ¾ of the way toward one corner, and the ceiling is 'oatmeal' sprayed (from the 80s) and I'm surrounded by couches and pillows.

I've pulled WaveMaps from the bridge end (aimed at bridge) 16"-18" (tail side) using small diaphragm (½"), medium (¾") and large (1") diaphragm mics.

The least usable WaveMaps were the SM-57, and the best the KSM-44 - from every position.

This is my experience, not yours, with my guitars (not yours), but I can tell you there was a substantial difference between the SM-57-58 and the studio mics.

In fairness the SM-57-58 WaveMaps sound like my guitar being played through an SM-57/58. I know Molly Tuttle likes her ToneDexter Wave Maps pulled with and SM-57 (there's a ToneDexter video of the initial time she used it).

To be fair, that's likely because she's used to playing on stages where she has stood in front of SM-57s for a couple decades, and that's the live sound her ears were adjusted to.

In recent months/years she's done a lot of experimenting and I've seen her using a vast array (and mixture) of using the ToneDexter combined with a live stage mic, or just the ToneDexter, or just an SM-57…and she always sounds like herself.

Have fun experimenting and adjusting. If you have a looper, a good thing to do is run your ToneDexter into a looper and record a couple minutes of different picking, strumming, plucking etc in a venue you are playing in, and then go out front and listen to it from the audience's perspective.

[Chriscom]

Originally Posted by Ryan Stanford

All, I posted a similar thread at the Talkbass forums here. I’ll be using my tonedexter 2 for both guitar and bass and will be monitoring both forums.

Thanks Ryan, and welcome to the forum! As a TD1 owner (I love it) I appreciate all the TDII field reports.

Originally Posted by aschroeder

Amazingly the very first IR I recorded was my best one. And it was with a large condenser microphone which I've heard is not ideal for the Tonedexter. So I can't wait to try out the small condenser mic.

This is true for the TD1 as well, that is, users could get excellent results from mics and/or mic types that weren't recommended. As ljguitar replied, experimenting is the key. (That being said, I start out with the recommedations).

[MarkLauden]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

run your ToneDexter into a looper and record a couple minutes of different picking, strumming, plucking etc in a venue you are playing in, and then go out front and listen to it from the audience's perspective.

Thanks, ljguitar. This nugget is really important, and no one else (including me) has mentioned it.
Using a looper is the best way to evaluate ToneDexter wavemaps, period. Headphones never sound like your amp or PA, and you can't evaluate the sound of an amp/PA if you're playing an acoustic guitar at the same time. A looper provides TD with pretty much the same input as if you were playing, but without the sound of you playing. Also, it makes it easier to compare wavemaps, because you can provide the exact same input each time.
If you don't have a looper, you don't need a fancy one for this. There are really cheap ones available. Try it!

[Stringmaster]

I’m a complete dummy when it comes to IR technology, but is it possible to save a wave map from one guitar, and use that with another? In other words can I store the replication of my best guitar acoustically (guitar A), and then perform with a utility instrument with a less desirable acoustic tone (guitar B) and get the sound of guitar A using guitar B through the Tonedexter?

[BlueStarfish]

Stringmaster,

There is nothing that will stop you from playing Guitar B with Guitar A’s wavemap. However, it’s pretty unlikely it will sound likely Guitar A.

Here’s the signal processing that’s happening, which leads to this outcome.

The TD (or the Baggs Voiceprint, or Cuki’s home-made IR generator) all use the same basic concept. They take two signals of the same performance, one signal from the guitar’s pickup, and the other from a mic. And then they calculate a “transformation” function between the two signals. You can think of it as something like this:

[pickup signal for Guitar A] x [wavemap function for Guitar A] = [best fit approximation for mic signal for Guitar A]

That’s not an accurate mathematical representation, but it is good enough to help us poor musicians that can only count to four understand what is going on.

Anyways, you can see that if you use Guitar B’s pickup with Guitar A’s wavemap, you are not going to get Guitar A’s mic’d signal. You are instead going to get some random output. It won’t hurt anything to try it and see what you think. But most likely it will just sound bad.