ToneDexter Thread

[buzzardwhiskey]

I've uncovered a behavioral oddity. The headphone appears to be placed before the return on the effects loop, so the only way to hear your effects are to use either the DI or amp outputs.

[Uncle Pauhana]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

I've uncovered a behavioral oddity. The headphone appears to be placed before the return on the effects loop, so the only way to hear your effects are to use either the DI or amp outputs.

If I'm reading the block diagram correctly (a fairly big "if"), that seems to be the way it is designed. Perhaps this is one of the compromises that were necessary to get the price down from $1k to $400 while keeping the core functionality intact?

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by Uncle Pauhana

If I'm reading the block diagram correctly (a fairly big "if"), that seems to be the way it is designed. Perhaps this is one of the compromises that were necessary to get the price down from $1k to $400 while keeping the core functionality intact?

That may well be true. I'm no engineer and I meant no disrespect.

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

I can't seem to get any of the image sites to work. Sorry...

But I've been playing around with this little setup (DigiTech RP360 run off ToneDexter effects loop) for a couple hours and I think I've got my "default" sound... a little compression, a little EQ and a little reverb.

So pro sounding.

I'm very happy with the sound of my banjo and mandolin. Live, tonight, my guitar wasn't as awesome. I suspect some of it was the room, but there's a weird mid-rangey honk at about 3.5k that I fought with.

This was the sound we eventually settled on (recorded off the Behringer):



Like I said, banjo and mandolin sound absolutely fantastic. Guitar needs some work in some rooms (and this one was rough), and I'd really rather not stick an EQ in the loop if I can avoid it—I'm trying to simplify everything....

Here's a whole song recorded off the Behringer x16 from a live performance this evening/yesterday night.



We have made a series of tweaks to our submixing rigs lately and so we're still working out the kinks in various things. It'll be a while before this is all dialed in properly. As with any live recoding off the mains, the sound in the room is going to be pretty different; and this was a noisy bar with narrow rooms, high ceilings and brick walls.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by midwinter

I'm very happy with the sound of my banjo and mandolin. Live, tonight, my guitar wasn't as awesome. I suspect some of it was the room, but there's a weird mid-rangey honk at about 3.5k that I fought with.

This was the sound we eventually settled on (recorded off the Behringer):



Like I said, banjo and mandolin sound absolutely fantastic. Guitar needs some work in some rooms (and this one was rough), and I'd really rather not stick an EQ in the loop if I can avoid it—I'm trying to simplify everything....

Here's a whole song recorded off the Behringer x16 from a live performance this evening/yesterday night.



We have made a series of tweaks to our submixing rigs lately and so we're still working out the kinks in various things. It'll be a while before this is all dialed in properly. As with any live recoding off the mains, the sound in the room is going to be pretty different; and this was a noisy bar with narrow rooms, high ceilings and brick walls.

FWIW, I definitely like the de-honked sound much better. Is there some reverb on that recording? It has a more distant feel than the first guitar ToneDexter recording. The first ToneDexter guitar sample actually had a bit of inside-the-guitar perspective, to my ears. I thought your EQ fix (to add more "air") might have played a part in that. In any event, 3.5KHz (which you've identified as a problem frequency) is within the range of ToneDexter's treble shelving (which starts down at 2KHz, according to the manual).

[fiddle fever]

I played a gig last night in a tavern and I used my TD for the first time. Last night I played fiddle, banjo and guitar (main instrument is guitar). Using the banjo and fiddle with the TD was really, really nice. I was super happy with tone. The guitar was good, but I need to do some work. I wish I knew more about EQing to describe the sound. My situation sounds similar to what Midwinter was describing, regarding his gig experience. My guitar has a K&K pickup. I felt like I was fighting with the mids and highs last night. I had my treble knob on my TD way down. I had musicians that came out to the gig last night and said my guitar sounded really nice...so I'm not sure if it's just my ears. I did bring my old pedalboard, but I never used it. I felt like there was something about the TD that gave a presence and clarity to my single notes, which I really loved last night. I think I just need to do more experimenting with mic placement, etc. I guess I could run an EQ pedal in the effects loop, but I'm with Midwinter on this one...I want to keep it simple with my setup. And having only one pedal on the floor last night was nice.

[Uncle Pauhana]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

That may well be true. I'm no engineer and I meant no disrespect.

I'm no engineer either, lol. Also, I've read your posts here and at the "old carbon place" for long enough to know that you are always respectful and constructive!

.

[LookerBob]

Question for other users: Am I missing something where you can preview the mic to adjust placement before you train? From the instructions, it seems I can only hear the mic only sound after I do a training, which is workable, but seems like the long way around...

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by LookerBob

Question for other users: Am I missing something where you can preview the mic to adjust placement before you train? From the instructions, it seems I can only hear the mic only sound after I do a training, which is workable, but seems like the long way around...

If there isn't a way to do that with the ToneDexter, you could plug your mic into another device, such as an audio interface, and use its headphone output to monitor mic placement. Then, after finding the best-sounding location(s), just switch the mic to the ToneDexter to train it.

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by LookerBob

Question for other users: Am I missing something where you can preview the mic to adjust placement before you train? From the instructions, it seems I can only hear the mic only sound after I do a training, which is workable, but seems like the long way around...

From memory... entering training mode is a two part process.

1) Tap the mute switch to enter Edit mode
2) Tap the boost switch to enter Training mode

With a mic attached, the first part is enough to begin hearing the mic. Thus you may spend as much time as you wish on placement.

I could be wrong and often am.

[guitaniac]

With respect to the training process, it seems that having a great mic(s) and finding the optimum mic position(s) would be the best way to proceed. In certain circumstances, however, I'm wondering if there would be any advantage to putting an EQ device between the training mic and ToneDexter.

For instance, if the acoustic sound of your guitar lacks deep bass, it may be advantageous to boost a narrow band of deep bass for the mic signal. Although you could certainly add bass (during performance) with ToneDexter's tone controls, an outboard EQ device (used during training on the mic signal) could be more precise. It might also eliminate the need to include a precise EQ device in the signal chain during performance.

[Uncle Pauhana]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

With respect to the training process, it seems that having a great mic(s) and finding the optimum mic position(s) would be the best way to proceed. In certain circumstances, however, I'm wondering if there would be any advantage to putting an EQ device between the training mic and ToneDexter.

For instance, if the acoustic sound of your guitar lacks deep bass, it may be advantageous to boost a narrow band of deep bass for the mic signal. Although you could certainly add bass (during performance) with ToneDexter's tone controls, an outboard EQ device (used during training on the mic signal) could be more precise. It might also eliminate the need to include a precise EQ device in the signal chain during performance.

Your idea may indeed prove very useful. But for me it would be a last resort because I always remember what my genius recording engineer says: the best EQ is mic placement.

.

[James May]

Originally Posted by Uncle Pauhana

If I'm reading the block diagram correctly (a fairly big "if"), that seems to be the way it is designed. Perhaps this is one of the compromises that were necessary to get the price down from $1k to $400 while keeping the core functionality intact?

Yes, that's exactly right. The practical approach is to take your best guess at a mic position, start training and play until it counts up and displays a "T", then audition the mic and if you think it could be better, move it around and find another position for the next training attempt.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by midwinter

I'm very happy with the sound of my banjo and mandolin. Live, tonight, my guitar wasn't as awesome. I suspect some of it was the room, but there's a weird mid-rangey honk at about 3.5k that I fought with.

It's the same honk I heard yesterday only amplified! Now that you know what frequency it's at, you can fix it with some EQ. The statement about mic placement made above, is really about getting the best out of any source with a mic in a recording situation, but in your case you are trying to improve the source to make it compatible with the tone-dexter for live play. So follow your instinct with the EQ, and fix what's getting into the Tonedexter. There are no rules regarding this technology, especially getting it to work for your situation. Personally I would not want to simulate a microphone live, as I always have one on my guitar anyway, and, more importantly, I think a pickup is superior to a microphone for getting a driving low-end. But, I'm watching you brave pioneers closely Oh and how did your arm/shoulder hold up for the gig????

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Uncle Pauhana

Your idea may indeed prove very useful. But for me it would be a last resort because I always remember what my genius recording engineer says: the best EQ is mic placement.

.

Among other things, I'm thinking that if the mic signal sounds great, but the Dexterized signal seems to be missing something, it may be useful to compensate by boosting or cutting certain frequencies for the training mic signal. In other words, you have a situation where the mic placement seems ideal (judging by the recorded sound), but the Dexterized sound still seems to be lacking something, or to be too strong in certain frequencies.

In this particular case, it might be helpful to run the Dexterized signal through an EQ device to see/hear if any EQ tweaks make it sound better. If certain EQ tweaks help, you could try applying the same EQ tweaks to the training mic signal.