Harmonic Analysis -- Aid in Memorization?

[zhunter]

I tend to think in numbers. For example, when teaching our bass player a song, I can call out the numbers all day long off the top of my head. But I have to pause and think if he wants to know the key or chord name. I have been on the bandstand, halfway through a song, played all the changes, to that point and, time for the solo comes, I look down at the fretboard and I am lost for an instant. Can't think of the key or where I should be on the board. I am working in a position and totally thinking of the chord numbers. So that is the easy way for me.

As for the OP example, I could easily get it both ways, neither being more complex to me. My first take away is chords are diatonic to C so I might analyze it and communicate it as numbers in C. This is a really straight forward approach but it still requires recognizing or feeling if you will the temporary key center of Am (or the 6). But I can also think key centers and mentally shift key centers between Am and C as the song progresses. I am calling chords to the band and it might go key of C start on the 6, etc. Or key of Am, start on 1 and shift to key center C as 1 at the appropriate point in the song.

The important thing is the 1 is the 1. The simplification is instead of 36 potential chord names for the chords in a 1, 4, 5 for example, all I need to know is 1, 4, 5 and pick a key, any key.

And harmonic analysis is always good since it provides the roadmap for chord selection, fills and solos.

hunter

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by zhunter

The important thing is the 1 is the 1. The simplification is instead of 36 potential chord names for the chords in a 1, 4, 5 for example, all I need to know is 1, 4, 5 and pick a key, any key.

Say you do know the key up front. How do you know what number chord is being played if you do not know the name of the chord? Or say you tell your playing partner to play the 1, 4, 5. How does he translate that into actual chords just from the numbers. There is a limited way of doing that ("I don't the chords I am play but I can still play the correct ones") via barre chord patterns (I did a thread on this a while back) but generally it is putting the cart in front of the horse IMO.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Say you do know the key up front. How do you know what number chord is being played if you do not know the name of the chord? Or say you tell your playing partner to play the 1, 4, 5. How does he translate that into actual chords just from the numbers. There is a limited way of doing that ("I don't the chords I am play but I can still play the correct ones") via barre chord patterns (I did a thread on this a while back) but generally it is putting the cart in front of the horse IMO.

I'm not recommending anything, and I'm just a beginner, but it seems to me that you can know, can't you? If I know the key and where the tonic is, then I also know that the key is major or minor or whatever, what the scale pattern is for that, and, if major, that the I, IV, V are all majors and the ii, iii, vi are minors, etc., as well as what the intervals are that create major, minor, dim, etc chords, and how to make those intervals on the fretboard, so it seems to me that the name of the chord is the last thing I need to know. To me, unless I know all the rest of this, the name of the chord wouldn't be all that helpful, (many people, of course, just memorize shapes, but I'm not that good at memorizing disconnected information). Oth, there are so many different ways to approach this. That's what makes it so interesting.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I'm not recommending anything, and I'm just a beginner, but it seems to me that you can know, can't you? If I know the key and where the tonic is, then I also know that the key is major or minor or whatever, what the scale pattern is for that, and, if major, that the I, IV, V are all majors and the ii, iii, vi are minors, etc., as well as what the intervals are that create major, minor, dim, etc chords, and how to make those intervals on the fretboard, so it seems to me that the name of the chord is the last thing I need to know. To me, unless I know all the rest of this, the name of the chord wouldn't be all that helpful, (many people, of course, just memorize shapes, but I'm not that good at memorizing disconnected information). Oth, there are so many different ways to approach this. That's what makes it so interesting.

You use multiple avenues to arrive to your destination, however:

Say I tell you to follow along with me on a tune in the key of F major and it goes I-ii-IV-V-I. OK, play that right off, no delay, without knowing the names of those chords.


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Or I say play the chords named:








F-Gm-Bb-C-F

[Silly Moustache]

I like the "Nashville Numbering System" although I can't help thinking that it was around way before there was a Nashville, a Tennessee or a USA.

It is about being able to adapt the key to (mainly) suit the vocals, whilst retaining the progression.

Someone said that it doesn't take into consideration the minors and other kinds of chords - Yes it does.

Frinstance

I.../II.../IIIm.../IV.../V7.../VIm.../VIId.../ etc. (I'm doing this in a hurry - right off to LAST Radio therapy!)

[stanron]

In the UK we use Roman numerals. Standard upper case for major chords and lower case for minor chords. (And yes I do know that the Romans themselves never used lower case but some of us have moved on in the last 2000 years.)

Adding 7ths and 9ths etc to chords is done using Arabic numbers so the diatonic list can come out as

I ii iii IV V7 vi vii(dim)

As for translating these to specific chords, you develop this as a skill. Surely not as difficult as learning to play figured bass on the fly?

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Someone said that it doesn't take into consideration the minors and other kinds of chords - Yes it does.

Frinstance

I.../II.../IIIm.../IV.../V7.../VIm.../VIId.../ etc. (I'm doing this in a hurry - right off to LAST Radio therapy!)

This is the Roman numerals. The traditional system, which the USA also uses, does mark majors and minors by showing with caps and small letters which is major and which minor. The Nashville system only uses 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 so that information is not shown in the numbers. It has to be known by the players but it's not inherent in the system.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

You use multiple avenues to arrive to your destination, however:

Say I tell you to follow along with me on a tune in the key of F major and it goes I-ii-IV-V-I. OK, play that right off, no delay, without knowing the names of those chords.


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Or I say play the chords named:

F-Gm-Bb-C-F

This is 2 different kinds of knowledge, imo. If you can play the chord names, but not the numbers, I would say it means that you learned the shapes assigned to those chord names. Your example depends on me knowing, for instance, what a Bb chord shape is. If I don't know that, and I don't know the system, I can't do anything. We all do memorize shapes, at least at first, but sometimes people who only learn that way are afraid of certain keys or even of "sharps and flats" or may not understand how the chords are put together so don't know how to modify them, etc.

However, we don't have to memorize every single chord all over the fretboard, if we know how the system works. We can, instead, derive the chords to fit any key anywhere, even while playing. Most people blend these two ways, of course. I certainly am as I'm just learning.

FWIW, if you said key of F major, I ii IV... assuming I didn't already know F major, I'd start with F then stop "translating" at all. I'd just play a minor where the ii of F is and a major where the IV of F is, etc. I wouldn't need to name the notes or chords. I would also recognize that as a common chord progression so I wouldn't even have to work to remember the order. More importantly, I could do this in any major key and it'd be exactly the same shapes, so if the singer said it needed to go up a half step, no problem.

Not saying I am super good at all this, yet, but I'm working on it.

It seems likely that the kind of knowledge that a player needs depends on what kind of musician s/he is. A person who is often receiving instructions like this without much preparation might need a different kind of knowledge of it than a singer/songwriter.