The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 01-19-2017, 12:01 PM
drplayer's Avatar
drplayer drplayer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,292
Default HELP - Suggestions for upgrading recording equipment?

Hi All,

I don't even know quite how to communicate what I want here, but I'll try:

After 25+ years of playing, I've acquired great guitars, really nice amps (Henriksen "The Bud" for acoustic, and a Fender Super Champ for electric), good mics (RODE NT1-A large diaphragm, and a Sennheiser e914 small diaphragm), Beats headphones, and Mogami cables for everything. I write music, both singer/songwriter stuff and solo acoustic (fingerstyle) stuff.

Here's my question... I've recorded a few of my pieces, just staging my ZOOM H1 Handy Recorder in front of the amp and then downloading it to my computer. It's been good enough up to now, as I have no intentions of publishing any of it; however, with nothing else in that realm to buy, I thought I'd focus my purchases on higher quality recording gear. I'm no techo-wizard or audiophile, so whatever I get has to be easy to learn & operate. Also, not being very savvy about this stuff, I'd appreciate it if you'd kind of "dumb it down" for me when you make your suggestions...I don't want to become a Recording Engineer, I just want to be able to make higher quality recordings. Lastly, I'm not afraid to spend money on quality equipment, but I don't have unlimited funds, so I don't need top-of-the-line stuff, as I suspect just about anything would be an improvement over my ZOOM H1.

I'm assuming anymore, that this probably requires a computer and some type of software, so, I guess that's a start? After that, I'd imagine it boils down to the signal chain and how everything fits together? So, there you have it...it probably is quite obvious that I'm pretty ignorant about all this, so any suggestions you might have would be appreciated. Thank You!
__________________

Martin 000-28EC
'71 Harmony Buck Owens American
Epiphone Inspired by Gibson J-45
Gold Tone PBR-D Paul Beard Signature Model resonator

"Lean your body forward slightly to support the guitar against your chest, for the poetry of the music should resound in your heart."
-Andrés Segovia

Last edited by drplayer; 01-19-2017 at 12:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-19-2017, 12:45 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,170
Default

I guess you have not perused the Record section already since this is a basic and many times covered topic.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-19-2017, 12:49 PM
drplayer's Avatar
drplayer drplayer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,292
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
I guess you have not perused the Record section already since this is a basic and many times covered topic.
That would be a good (and accurate guess)...had no need to until now. Thanks for the tip, I'll peruse away
__________________

Martin 000-28EC
'71 Harmony Buck Owens American
Epiphone Inspired by Gibson J-45
Gold Tone PBR-D Paul Beard Signature Model resonator

"Lean your body forward slightly to support the guitar against your chest, for the poetry of the music should resound in your heart."
-Andrés Segovia
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-19-2017, 12:58 PM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,877
Default

Couple of thoughts

First

I encourage you think about and post a preliminary budget range (what dollar range you would feel comfortable spending to get going)
Because '"not afraid to spend money" and "not having unlimited funds" is still vague because that range can vary significantly by individual circumstance for some that might be $ 300 to $$800 for some $500 to $1000 for some $5k to $10k or for some $10k to $20k... it is all completely relative to the individual.

With that said there is the caveat, in essence you do in fact want to become "a recording engineer" (Of sorts) maybe not a pro by any stretch) , but quality recording and mixing is in fact a long term learning curve and you will have to learn the techniques and skills, become acquainted with the basic technical jargon and especially develop the "critical listening skills" on a practical level, just as if you were going to start to get into it professionally (but thankfully not as extensively)

But if your going the computer route you would then be talking DAW software (Digital Audio Workstation) and depending on your preference of either Mac or PC while most DAWs will work fine on either, there are some exceptions.

With a computer and in order to your analog mic signals into the DAW .
You need a mic pre to plug the mics into and boost them to line level
You need A/D conversion (Analog signal to Digital signal)
You will also need and Audio interface to talk to the DAW.
Then in order to monitor (hear) what you are mixing in the DAW, you will need D/A conversion to change the Digital signal back to Analog that you hear on speakers or headphones

The good news is there now lots of great reasonably priced combo Interface units with decent pres and conversion in one box and probably makes the most sense for getting into it.

The Sen 941 and Rode are just fine to get started
And by all means like Rick suggested check out and search the recording forum
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-19-2017, 01:09 PM
drplayer's Avatar
drplayer drplayer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,292
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
I encourage you think about and post a preliminary budget range (what dollar range you would feel comfortable spending to get going)
Because '"not afraid to spend money" and "not having unlimited funds" is still vague because that range can vary significantly by individual circumstance for some that might be $ 300 to $$800 for some $500 to $1000 for some $5k to $10k or for some $10k to $20k... it is all completely relative to the individual.
Thank you, and fair enough... If possible, I guess I'd like to stay under $1K, not counting the cost of the computer.
__________________

Martin 000-28EC
'71 Harmony Buck Owens American
Epiphone Inspired by Gibson J-45
Gold Tone PBR-D Paul Beard Signature Model resonator

"Lean your body forward slightly to support the guitar against your chest, for the poetry of the music should resound in your heart."
-Andrés Segovia
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-19-2017, 01:39 PM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,300
Default

The basic pieces fit together like this.

Recording:
Microphone/other signal --> (mic preamp) --> audio interface --> computer with DAW software

Playback:
Computer DAW --> speakers/headphones

Many audio interfaces have mic preamps built into them so a separate preamp isn't really necessary, but some like the control and quality they can get with a separate preamp.

For playback, you need headphones if you are mic'ing your instrument/voice while playing along with an earlier recorded track. For mixing, you'll get much better results with some monitoring speakers, so you want both.

Cost, as KevWind noted, can really vary. An audio interface can run $100-150 for a 2-input unit with micpreamps from Focusrite or Presonus, up to many thousands for high quality multi-input units where you need separate preamps.

DAWs can run the gamut too, from free (Audacity) to very inexpensive (Reaper) to hundreds of dollars (Protools).

And similarly, decent monitors are several hundred to thousands of bucks.

IMO, a basic beginner-to-intermediate setup would be a 2-channel audio interface with preamps (budget $200), Reaper DAW ($60 personal license), and well-reviewed monitors in the $400 range.

YMMV. Some might want to budget more for a separate mic preamp or interface with better preamps built-in, or prefer a different DAW that runs a few hundred. But staying under $1K and getting great results is certainly possible!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-19-2017, 02:39 PM
drplayer's Avatar
drplayer drplayer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,292
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
The basic pieces fit together like this.

Recording:
Microphone/other signal --> (mic preamp) --> audio interface --> computer with DAW software

Playback:
Computer DAW --> speakers/headphones

Many audio interfaces have mic preamps built into them so a separate preamp isn't really necessary, but some like the control and quality they can get with a separate preamp.

For playback, you need headphones if you are mic'ing your instrument/voice while playing along with an earlier recorded track. For mixing, you'll get much better results with some monitoring speakers, so you want both.

Cost, as KevWind noted, can really vary. An audio interface can run $100-150 for a 2-input unit with micpreamps from Focusrite or Presonus, up to many thousands for high quality multi-input units where you need separate preamps.

DAWs can run the gamut too, from free (Audacity) to very inexpensive (Reaper) to hundreds of dollars (Protools).

And similarly, decent monitors are several hundred to thousands of bucks.

IMO, a basic beginner-to-intermediate setup would be a 2-channel audio interface with preamps (budget $200), Reaper DAW ($60 personal license), and well-reviewed monitors in the $400 range.

YMMV. Some might want to budget more for a separate mic preamp or interface with better preamps built-in, or prefer a different DAW that runs a few hundred. But staying under $1K and getting great results is certainly possible!
Thank you very much! I'm assuming if the computer (laptop, I'm guessing) being used is dedicated for this purpose, that I can get by with something pretty bare-bones?
__________________

Martin 000-28EC
'71 Harmony Buck Owens American
Epiphone Inspired by Gibson J-45
Gold Tone PBR-D Paul Beard Signature Model resonator

"Lean your body forward slightly to support the guitar against your chest, for the poetry of the music should resound in your heart."
-Andrés Segovia
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-19-2017, 03:09 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 4,888
Default

The question about how much you'd find reasonable to spend is one way to start. However, I'll allow that it may be difficult if you don't know what things can do for you and so you don't know the cost/benefit for various options yet.

Another good starting place question would be: what do you want to do in regards to recording? You may not know that for all time and forever either, but you might have a more concrete vision there.

To further explain what I mean by "What...recording?" here are three not uncommon goals, and what it would cost to do each of them, and what you need to get to get started or get to a intermediate level etc would differ.

Recording solo guitar (either electric or acoustic). That's all we know for sure you want to do so far. Perhaps you want to add one solo vocal.

Create "one man band" recordings which include keyboards, drums, bass parts, perhaps even strings or horn parts and of course vocals. For this example I'll assume you aren't really going to do this by playing all those "real" instruments, including a real drum set, though you might play bass and a keyboards as well as guitar.

Record a "real band" with a drum set, more than one guitar, perhaps keys, perhaps other instruments. Vocals will also be assumed for most bands. We'll assume for this example that you will be tracking more one instrument at once at times.

These are not the only possible goals (I left out predominately electronic music, because most acoustic guitar forum members probably aren't interested in this, but I'll bet there are exceptions). And you might want to do all three of the above, or something I've not thought of.

Let us know what you envision doing and that may help.
__________________
-----------------------------------
Creator of The Parlando Project

Guitars: 20th Century Seagull S6-12, S6 Folk, Seagull M6; '00 Guild JF30-12, '01 Martin 00-15, '16 Martin 000-17, '07 Parkwood PW510, Epiphone Biscuit resonator, Merlin Dulcimer, and various electric guitars, basses....
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-19-2017, 03:32 PM
drplayer's Avatar
drplayer drplayer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,292
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
The question about how much you'd find reasonable to spend is one way to start. However, I'll allow that it may be difficult if you don't know what things can do for you and so you don't know the cost/benefit for various options yet.

Another good starting place question would be: what do you want to do in regards to recording? You may not know that for all time and forever either, but you might have a more concrete vision there.

To further explain what I mean by "What...recording?" here are three not uncommon goals, and what it would cost to do each of them, and what you need to get to get started or get to a intermediate level etc would differ.

Recording solo guitar (either electric or acoustic). That's all we know for sure you want to do so far. Perhaps you want to add one solo vocal.

Create "one man band" recordings which include keyboards, drums, bass parts, perhaps even strings or horn parts and of course vocals. For this example I'll assume you aren't really going to do this by playing all those "real" instruments, including a real drum set, though you might play bass and a keyboards as well as guitar.

Record a "real band" with a drum set, more than one guitar, perhaps keys, perhaps other instruments. Vocals will also be assumed for most bands. We'll assume for this example that you will be tracking more one instrument at once at times.

These are not the only possible goals (I left out predominately electronic music, because most acoustic guitar forum members probably aren't interested in this, but I'll bet there are exceptions). And you might want to do all three of the above, or something I've not thought of.

Let us know what you envision doing and that may help.
Thank you for your insight. I will predominantly be recording solo guitars pieces, or songs where I sing and accompany myself on guitar. As I progress, I can see the slight possibility of maybe experimenting with a "one man band" kind of thing, where I would play the guitar part and sing, and the other instruments would be backing tracks (for lack of a better term). That's about it, as I really don't have a desire to delve into it any deeper than that...simple is best for me.
__________________

Martin 000-28EC
'71 Harmony Buck Owens American
Epiphone Inspired by Gibson J-45
Gold Tone PBR-D Paul Beard Signature Model resonator

"Lean your body forward slightly to support the guitar against your chest, for the poetry of the music should resound in your heart."
-Andrés Segovia
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-19-2017, 04:47 PM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,300
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drplayer View Post
Thank you very much! I'm assuming if the computer (laptop, I'm guessing) being used is dedicated for this purpose, that I can get by with something pretty bare-bones?
Most computers these days, even laptops, have plenty of horsepower for the job. But, as for every intensive application, the more processor power and more RAM you have, the better. If you can go a notch up (at least, say, i5 processor or equivalent and 8G RAM) without breaking the bank, I'd do it. Things like bus speeds can also enter into it, but for what you're doing you probably don't need to worry too much about that.

FWIW, I use a setup very similar to what I've described ($150 2-input interface, Reaper, desktop PC with i5/8G), and have done lots of projects from single guitar/voice to multi-tracked "band" with drums, keyboards, percussion and multiple guitar and vocal tracks. You can do amazing stuff without a huge investment.

In fact, after buying gear, your next best "investment" would be to study some of the ins and outs of how to use the gear. I helped another friend get started not too long ago, and found this site: http://www.basic-home-recording-stud...ng-basics.html that had pretty good explanations of how to put it together and get started. Learning to use EQ and compression effectively will go along way as well.

Last edited by Chipotle; 01-19-2017 at 04:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-19-2017, 04:54 PM
FwL FwL is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drplayer View Post
Thank you very much! I'm assuming if the computer (laptop, I'm guessing) being used is dedicated for this purpose, that I can get by with something pretty bare-bones?

'Bare-bones' is a loaded term.

Bare-bones yes = hot computer with fast multi-core cpu, tons of RAM and very little in the way of bloat... Eg.. Tons of extra software beyond basic operating system and DAW or extra hardware features that are going to be fighting for resources.

Bare-bones no = cheap netbook style machine with barely enough power to surf the internet and check email.


Recording audio is a tough job that computers are not really designed to do. Recording audio while simultaneously listening to audio (overdubbing vocals on a guitar track) is even harder. Playing several audio tracks while processing effects, volume adjustments, panning etc and simultaneously writing the result to a new file (mixing down a project) is even more difficult.

If you're going to buy a computer for recording it would be a good idea to spend some time learning about what things people who do a lot of this stuff recommend.
__________________
.
.

Playing Guitar - Books, Free Lessons & Practice Resources
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-19-2017, 05:05 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,951
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drplayer View Post
Thank you for your insight. I will predominantly be recording solo guitars pieces, or songs where I sing and accompany myself on guitar. As I progress, I can see the slight possibility of maybe experimenting with a "one man band" kind of thing, where I would play the guitar part and sing, and the other instruments would be backing tracks (for lack of a better term). That's about it, as I really don't have a desire to delve into it any deeper than that...simple is best for me.
This means that a 2 x 2 recording computer interface will be adequate for you planned uses, i.e., one capable of recording two channels at the same time and capable of outputting in stereo. Because you can record, say, 3rd, 4th and 5th tracks later, you can still mix all five tracks down to stereo output.

As to what you need, add the following to your list:

1) Near field monitors;
2) Headphones (closed back for tracking, open back for mixing/listening);
3) A table to hold everything;
4) Microphones;
5) Mic stands;
6) Appropriate cables;
7) Room treatment for your chosen room; and
8) DAW software with plugins.

Some folks will say you don't need all of this at once, which is arguably true. But you will eventually need all of these things if you want a fully functioning home studio.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-19-2017, 07:41 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,878
Default

You've gotten lots of good advice already, but I'd say there are a couple of decision points that you can make.

path 1:

First, if you just want to keep doing what you're doing more or less - solo performances - but at higher quality, just step up to the Zoom H5 or H6. Check out Fran Guidry's You Tube channel for videos where the sound was done with the H6 and built-in mics. Fran did a post here recently about using the built-in mics for guitar+vocals.

2nd, you can step up a bit more in quality by getting some external mics, which the H5 and H6 support. Sky's the limit on pricing here, but even budget mics offer more flexibility in sound. Check out my You Tube channel, where the audio for all the recent videos have been with a Zoom H6 and external mics. With the H6, you can plug in up to 6 mics, so you have a lot of flexibility, for a separate vocal mic, etc.

path 2:

Record to the computer: You just need an interface (assuming you have a computer, or even an iPad). (and mics, stands, cables...) There are tons of these from a few $100 to as much as you want to spend.

path 1 actually has some nice benefits, the Zoom's are totally silent, compared to recording to a computer, where you have to worry about noise. You can also go anywhere, so you might be able to duck the acoustic treatment issue, if you can find a room that sounds good. Path 2 on the other hand, allows unlimited tracks and all kinds of cool options for recording, from overdubbing to using loops, to...

Common:

With either approach, a big part of getting better quality will be in the mixing. One option, especially if you're limiting the recordings to solo, is to send the tracks from something like the Zoom's to someone else for mixing. If you want to do it yourself, you get into the stuff that others have mentioned, a DAW (which are available for anywhere from free to ....) monitors, room treatment (important not just for capturing sound, but for hearing what your mixing), effects, plugins, etc. This largely depends on how much you want to get into it. It's not all that hard, and doesn't have to be all that expensive, but there is a learning curve, and it's a hobby/pursuit all in its own right.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-19-2017, 09:30 PM
drplayer's Avatar
drplayer drplayer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,292
Default

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond in such detail...I sincerely appreciate your input! Certainly some viable options are available to me within my desired budget, and it seems like it boils down to how involved or simple I choose to keep it. Lots to think about and a bit more homework for me to do before I start writing checks, but thanks again to all of you. Such a great resource we have here in the AGF!
__________________

Martin 000-28EC
'71 Harmony Buck Owens American
Epiphone Inspired by Gibson J-45
Gold Tone PBR-D Paul Beard Signature Model resonator

"Lean your body forward slightly to support the guitar against your chest, for the poetry of the music should resound in your heart."
-Andrés Segovia
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-20-2017, 02:19 AM
Mbroady's Avatar
Mbroady Mbroady is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Asheville via NYC
Posts: 6,298
Default

IMHO....
Better to have a good sounding room and ok equipment then great equipment and a bad recording environment.
__________________
David Webber Round-Body
Furch D32-LM
MJ Franks Lagacy OM
Rainsong H-WS1000N2T
Stonebridge OM33-SR DB
Stonebridge D22-SRA
Tacoma Papoose
Voyage Air VAD-2
1980 Fender Strat
A few Partscaster Strats
MIC 60s Classic Vib Strat
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=