Need Recommendation on Amplifier

[cotten]

rudals1281, I also have an Ultrasound AG50 DS4, and you are exactly right about it's not being the best tool for this particular job. If you can, though, keep it when you get something more appropriate for this setting. The DS4 is a great sounding 26 lb. package for smaller settings. I sometimes use mine as a stage monitor when also plugging into a full PA system.

If you decide that light weight and speedy set up is important, I agree that the Fishman SA220 will be hard to beat. For a bit more money and set up time, the Bose L1 systems will, in my opinion, be even better. It's "line array" design allows it to sound almost as clear and strong at the back of a room as it does closer. I have one of the older models, and it is surprisingly capable. I don't like it's sound up close as much as, say, krisls' pair of K10's and a MFXi8 mixer, but those K10s will not have the long throw that the Bose L1 will have. Of course, the L1 is more money, too.

Bose also makes an L1 Compact that is light weight, quick to set up and can sound quite good. Some people prefer it over the Fishman SA220, though others disagree.

I rather doubt that your idea of swapping from the DS4 to a Loudbox Artist is going to be satisfactory, though it would be louder. I'd suggest checking out the SA220 first, based on what you've told us. Good luck, and let us know what you decide on and how it works.

cotten

[Rudals]

You the best, Cotten.

Thanks and will report back.

The best and cheapest solution for now seems to be to use the ds4 as a monitor, take a 1/4 cable from the back of the amp to a di box, then connect to the mediocre PA system via XLR(?) cable

[ricdoug]

Neither a Bose L1 (we own one) or an SA220 may not have the capability to throw that room. 800 is quite a large audience to cover. An inexpensive preamp/DI that may help you overcome your situation is:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...TIC_ADI21.html

This preamp/DI will give you more control over the house system on your stage sound. Ric

[sam.spoons]

What actually is the house PA?

My FOH rig is 2 x QSC K12s, 1 x EV SbA750 sub (for when there is bass or drums and on acoustic gigs where there are are instruments like melodeon or bodhran). It's a very nice system but wouldn't consider it powerful enough to fill an 800 seat auditorium even for acoustic music. I'd say around 250-300 is it's limit in the real world.

BTW, I've heard good things about that Behringer Preamp/DI but another good quality solution would be to take the line pout from your amp into an Orchid Micro DI. Very high quality and very inexpensive. http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/micro.htm

[davander2000]

I use one--or two--powered speakers on stands when I need more juice in a bigger or outdoor venue. I take the line out signal from my Genz Benz amp, and get the exact same sound from my powered speakers as I do from the amp alone, only louder. I use behringer euro live b210d speakers. They sound very good and are 200 watt speakers.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by rudals1281

You the best, Cotten.

Thanks and will report back.

The best and cheapest solution for now seems to be to use the ds4 as a monitor, take a 1/4 cable from the back of the amp to a di box, then connect to the mediocre PA system via XLR(?) cable

The DS4 actually has an XLR DO output in the back, but I think that the best way to do this, given the way the DS4's DI is designed, would be to use a DI box to split your signal. Go into the DI from the guitar, and then send the signal to the house from the DI's XLR out and use the 1/4" pass-though output to send the same signal into the amp for your monitoring.

Louis

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rudals1281

…a venue that fills about 800 people
- Get true clear and undistorted guitar sound from the amplifier

Hi r…

If this was the report sheet I received on a venue, I'd be asking for a full PA system with sub-woofers to handle that clear and undistorted sound you are looking for.

To try to fill the room with a combo amplifier or single speaker cabinet would be like blasting the crowd with a water cannon to reach the back. It could be done with a single speaker as long as you are willing to melt the people in the front of the room to reach the people at the back.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by rudals1281

Hello!

I am looking for an amplifier to go with my Taylor 614CE and for the following purpose:
- Use as an alternative to a PA in a venue that fills about 800 people
- Get true clear and undistorted guitar sound from the amplifier

I have been using an amplifier called UltraSound DS4 but feel like it cannot fill the venue and (call me crazy) I am not feeling that clarity. I am currently using as a monitor at the venue each week but people want me to use the amp to fill the venue. (PA is not good so I refuse to use it and I have no control over it).

I am considering the Fishman Loudbox Artist.

Rudals1281,

I was somewhat hesitant to respond to this type of thread (recommend an amp as an "alternative" to a P/A), because there are so many elements involved here, that I'm not sure where to start. Some of the respondents to this thread have provided great answers, and I simply wouldn't want those answers to be overlooked.

Let's consider a few basic elements;

Point 1.

Watt ratings are essentially useless information. You have to first of all, learn to differentiate between "conservative" ratings vs "marketing" ratings. It takes quite a bit of time and research, and exposure to different levels of system-performance, before you can begin to sort it out. Linearity and efficiency ratings are the most important elements of a good sound system; linearity in the sense of total distortion at rated output,,, and efficiency in the sense of total SPL (sound-pressure level) per watt. On paper, many similarly watt-rated systems can "appear" or suggest to offer similar performance, when in reality, nothing could be farther from the truth. An extreme example would be something like a PowerWerx system vs a Nexo,,,, or better yet a d&B Audio-Technik Q7 system. There's a reason one may cost $500. while the other may cost $15,000.(Nexo) vs $35,000. (d&B Audio Technik Q7).

You may ask, "What are "marketing watts?" Well, that term unfortunately applies to most consumer-level products( to varying degrees). Some manufacturers, may for example, state the peak watt rating of only one component in the speaker enclosure, rather than viewing the entire speaker as a singular unit. An example is the K-series speakers, which appear to suggest that they are a 1000 watt speaker, when in fact, QSC makes no such claim. They simply state that the speakers have two 500 watt amplifiers, one for the low-frequency driver, and one for the high-frequency driver. The actual power rating of the HF driver is 25 watts RMS. They rely on the average consumer looking no farther than the spec they want to see. (1000 watts). That's not a knock on QSC by the way, it can be a great sounding speaker (properly used). The same applies to most other manufacturers in this price-range, whether it's Yamaha, JBL, Electro-Voice, Yorkville, etc.

Point #2;

You said; the house PA is "not good so I refuse to use it and I have no control over it".

Now, that may well be the case, but, be aware that regardless of the quality of the house system, it will not sound its' best when listened to from the stage (usually standing behind the house P/A.) That's why pro's use monitors. Also, the sound-man is the audiences ears, so he "should" know what sounds best from FOH, even though it may sound awful from the stage.

Point 3;

Larry mentioned being aware of the effect of "blasting the front rows of the audience, in order to get appropriate sound-pressure level to the rear of the venue", and I agree this can be a problem with certain types of systems,,,especially when inadequately elevated and aimed properly. That's got to do with the "Inverse Square Law". That touches on why Uncle Pauhana mentioned the use of flown line-arrays earlier in this thread.

Very basically described, the Inverse Square Law states that there is a drop-off of 6dB SPL for every doubling of distance from the source. (This law applies equally to microphones by the way). Flown J-hang arrays behave a little differently because of the number of speakers involved, combined with the aiming of those speakers. When doing sound-reinforcement for a "deep venue" such as you described, you most certainly do not want to be using a floor-level combo-amplifier, or you definitely will be "blasting" the front rows. Elevating the amp helps HF dispersion somewhat, but, at the expense of losing the floor-coupling effect.(reduced low-frequency performance)

Point #4;

The type of venue may have more of an impact on your sound than the actual size of the venue. A room with straight parallel walls and flat ceiling, along with a flat level floor, can be quite challenging, compared to a proper auditorium with elevated stage, banked seating, non-parallel walls, and acoustic paneled ceiling. These latter rooms are designed specifically to optimize acoustics, and you can get by with a lesser system. Boxy rooms can have issues with standing waves, etc.(boominess) as well as muddiness(loss of clarity), especially at the back of the venue (caused by HF reflections).

Point#5;

I'm not suggesting that you run out and blow $15k. on a sound system,,,, you have to be practical, but, be aware of the possibilities, as well as the trade-offs. When you want to sound like the pro's, you do your best in using whatever means are at your disposal, and being realistic about the expectations of whatever system you choose. There are times when it's simply better to hire a well-equipped sound-man. Not only will he/she provide sound, they also do all the grunt work (supply the gear,,,,transport,,,,set-up,,,sound-checks,,,,tear-down,,,,,,,etc.

Finally; (and sorry about being so long-winded)

If "your sound" is important to you, you'll also want to consider how the audience perceives "your sound",,,,,, you're doing it "for them". It's their perception that will determine how they review "your show", and whether they want to return as customers, or recommend you to friends.

Good luck!!!