Expression System Modifications--Does Anyone Know How? - Page 2

Herb Hunter · #16 09-23-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalbert

Some in the industry think that the transducers aren't the problem--the preamp is. If you've ever heard a high-headroom UST like the D-TAR or Mi Si, you can tell a noticeable improvement over the brand Taylor used prior to 2003. FWIW, I switched from an ES guitar because I just couldn't get over its magnetic character.

While a preamp with an especially wide dynamic range does help to some degree, it is not a full solution or there would be no need for devices like the Mama Bear and Aura. (Preamp headroom doesn't address why piezoelectric speakers are such low fidelity devices.)

One either likes the ES or one doesn't. For those that don't, the after-market provides plenty of alternatives.

MikeTX · #17 09-23-2008, 09:48 AM

You're welcome Spruce.

Yes, I am perfectly happy with undersaddle. I have not used the Aura - Fishman stuff is good, but get good results with Baggs Para DI. I also have the Radial ToneBone Pre-Z preamp, very cool, but I'm not sure sounds significantly better than the Baggs, if at all.

I also, earlier, liked the idea of the Fishman Blend series, with the internal mic, but those sound, to me, very metallic, much like what I don't care for about the ES. So... I guess I'm happy being an undersaddle guy. Actually sounds most natural to me, which its detractors will argue. Guess that's why there's more than one thing...

My latest Taylor, ordered without electronics, LOOKS just like it has ES, which is fine, it's a convenient, low profile design. I'm delighted with that decision and implementation.

Good luck with your quest!
Mike

taylorcc · #18 09-23-2008, 10:43 AM

"Do any of you Taylor afficiandos, familiar with the Expression Sytem, know of a method to downplay the underfingerboard magnetic pickup's level in the mix compared to the two body sensors? Is there an ES circuitboard choke-coil screw or other readily-manipulated control for the underfingerboard magnetic pickup that I can turn and tweak to my ears' satisfaction, and, if desired, can be returned to factory-levels?
"

A low tech possibility: put a piece of sheet steel on the fretboard between the strings and the pickup. We Expressioneers who had hot B strings on an earlier version of the system learned to do this to reduce the B string volume. We put the metal under the B string, obviously. You could put a large piece under all the strings. I used a small piece of metal from a soup can, stuck on with doublestick tape. Move the metal around while plucking strings to find the 'sweet spot'.

Ed

quanah1953 · #19 09-23-2008, 11:44 AM

Take the Taylor back to the store!! Then get a Taylor WITHOUT the expression system in it. Buy a B-Band XOM and install it. You will be amazed and completely satisfied.
The ES system is way over glorified. It really does a poor job in every respect, including direct to a PA.

My 2 cents worth!

Herb Hunter · #20 09-23-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quanah1953

Take the Taylor back to the store!! Then get a Taylor WITHOUT the expression system in it. Buy a B-Band XOM and install it. You will be amazed and completely satisfied.
The ES system is way over glorified. It really does a poor job in every respect, including direct to a PA.

My 2 cents worth!

To put it more accurately, in your hands, to your ears and as per your preferences, the Expression System is not satisfying or suitable.

The Expression System works better than any factory installed system I have tried for my guitar playing technique. Back in July at CAAS convention in Nashville, the most natural sounding guitar on stage over was an ES equipped 514 running essentially flat.

jphilly77 · #21 04-09-2011, 02:26 PM

I'm actually in the same boat as the original poster. I have an early 2008 GS7 (Western Red Cedar top) and I LOOOOVE it... UN-plugged that is. I despise the fact that I opted for the Expression system. Totally my fault. I was told "it sounds like a big ol' microphone" and compared to an Tacoma with a Fishman UST it sounded quite different. In the early days of playing the new GS7 I was still blinded by the "honeymoon phase" of owning such a great playing guitar.

Sure you can use the internal DIP switches, but they only turn the 2 body sensors off and on individually. Those are the only good things about the ES. I agree that the culprit is the pickup under the neck that makes it sound so gross. To me overall the ES is just way too "hissy" and that pickup under the neck just sounds too much like an out-of-phase strat glued inside an acoustic.

I'm debating whether to install a McIntyre Feather GF-30 independantly and drill a separate endpin jack or try and sell it and buy one without a pickup and put the Feather in that one.

Live and learn I guess.

leeasam · #22 04-09-2011, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quanah1953

Take the Taylor back to the store!! Then get a Taylor WITHOUT the expression system in it. Buy a B-Band XOM and install it. You will be amazed and completely satisfied.
The ES system is way over glorified. It really does a poor job in every respect, including direct to a PA.

My 2 cents worth!

my 2010 816CE with the latest single body sensor ES sounds great and better than any former ES and even other USTs. I plugged it into an Ultrasound amp at a store and people were amazed at how good it sounded. I played it soft then attacked it hard and never distorted or quaked etc.

mine pretty much sounds this way from our church PA
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars...ession-system/

coldshot · #23 04-09-2011, 04:53 PM

I'm with leeasam, the 2010 es is exceptionally better than the previous versions.

olrocker · #24 04-09-2011, 05:28 PM

Okay, we're resurrecting a 2 1/2 year old thread, but it is still interesting. After reading all the posts, it seems the 2010 iteration of the ES was redesigned, to address specifically those complaints mentioned by the OP and others. I had the same observations, and my solution was to upgrade, and to my ear, that solved the "cold, metallic, too midrangy" characteristic of the 2007 iteration of the ES pickup system.

leeasam · #25 04-09-2011, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olrocker

Okay, we're resurrecting a 2 1/2 year old thread, but it is still interesting. After reading all the posts, it seems the 2010 iteration of the ES was redesigned, to address specifically those complaints mentioned by the OP and others. I had the same observations, and my solution was to upgrade, and to my ear, that solved the "cold, metallic, too midrangy" characteristic of the 2007 iteration of the ES pickup system.

LOL I guess I did not catch the old thread. But I agree the latest version IMO is WAY ahead of the older especially the 3V systems. I know it took a while but seems as if Taylor was listening. Not everything cna be changed in a moments notice. takes time to create build and field test then release. I am glad they did

DJinDallas · #26 04-09-2011, 07:01 PM

A number of changes seem to have been made in the last year or so. For one, there's only one body sensor now. They haven't got around to updating their owners manuals either since most I see still instruct about the two switches and there's only one now. I'm not sure when they started to move the magnetic pole-piece for the B string forward.

One thing is sure when it comes to the ES and that is most people some to love it or hate it, with not too many in the middle ground. The current version sounds very natural to my ear with none of the quackiness that most piezo systems produce. While the Aura system is cool (especially in the new Performing Artist series) it seems strange to pay $3k for a guitar with electronics designed to make it sound like a different guitar. I like 'em both though, each for their reasons.

andrewbranch · #27 06-13-2012, 07:54 PM

Don't know if anyone will stumble upon this thread now, but I have some information that might be of interest.

I too have a Taylor with the newer, 9V version of the ES, and have been underwhelmed by the electronics. I don't like the magnetic sound. Sure it's cheesy, but I really prefer the sound of a quality UST.

I have successfully added a Fishman UST to the Expression System circuitry in my guitar. I have switches that allow me to use the old pickups, my new pickup, or both. The body sensors are individually switchable as always, in any setting. The UST signal is being preamplified internally with some added circuitry of mine as well as with the existing ES preamp. This means I can use the existing volume and equalizer controls regardless of what pickup configuration I choose.

I had the best intentions of documenting the whole process and making a video of it, but that fell short. However, if a few people are interested in this, I'd be willing to throw my notes together and explain my process. It takes quite a bit of handiness with a soldering iron, care with delicate wires, and having tiny hands helps a lot. It's not easy. That said, most of the hard work was the figuring it out, which I've done for you. I'm very pleased with my creation, and I think it was worth it.

If you are interested, private message me.

lur3nj14 · #28 06-14-2012, 06:12 AM

I, for one, is very much interested in how you mod'ed the expression system.

briggleman · #29 06-14-2012, 06:54 AM

If it were me.... I would contact Bob Taylor and speak with him about your modification. You could make some money on this if it works out!!! Bob T is all about getting the best sound out of his guitars and if you have figured out a way to blend the best of both worlds....... then I would not post your modification here. This is how inventions are lost, patents lost, and someone else gets the credit!!!

On an ES note.... I have other guitars with UST's and none of them sound as natural as the ES does when plugged in. I have a Fender Ensenada mini-jumbo that sounds fantastic unplugged, but plugged in, it loses its body, and sounds thin. I should upgrade the system in it, but its a factory Fishman (under the sound hole) system and unobtrusive and does the job.

Jazzgear · #30 06-18-2012, 01:34 PM

I'll throw my cents into this old thread. I love Taylor guitars -- but have never been able to make any of them work amplified through the ES system....and I've been trying since the original versions. So, I read about the improved 2010 version and decided to give it a try. Well, it sucks.....still. Yes it is improved only when heavily eq'd to scoop out the mids...but then it doesn't sound that great live in the mix. I returned it just before the 30 days were up and purchased a Martin GPCPA1 with the F1 aura. While I slightly prefer the unplugged tone of the Taylor, the Martin blows it away through its eletronics.

As for how natural USTs sound....well, I just recently had the new LR Baggs Tru Mic Anthem System installed in my HD28v, and just wow! The most amazing natural sound I've ever heard from a UST/Mic combo. I think it blows away the F1 Aura in my other Martin. Just a great great sounding pickup. And even more amazing is the design and placement of the mic -- that allows for a high threshold of feedback rejection-- gigged this past weekend in a loud band setting -- cut through no problem, no feedback, no quack -- just beautiful, loud acoustic tone.