Celtic Guitar--Genre Characteristics?

[astrummer]

I like the Celtic Genre of music and have been able to make some "Celtic sounding" variations of simple songs especially in DADGAD ( actually DADGAD down a step) . But what are the genre characteristics for Celtic Guitar? Are there particular scale and rhythm patterns ( perhaps 6/8?) that are typical? ( or stereotypical? ) I know about the "drone notes". Are there chord progressions that tend to be associated with the genre?

Perhaps there is a book or website that someone here knows about that explains this well.......

[cpmusic]

That's a lot to try and answer in a forum like this, especially since it's hard to convey the feel of the music through words. Here's a very general starting point.

First, put aside whatever you know about playing American folk, bluegrass or rock music, as Irish music follows a different path. The strum is full up and down mostly in an eighth-note pattern (as opposed to boom-chick) leaning on the main pulses of the meter, two for 4/4 and 6/8, three for 9/8. Also, it's not uncommon to vary the rhythm somewhat, especially when playing under traditional melodies.

The jig rhythm, BTW, is fairly specific, based on a single up or down strum for every eighth note with emphasis on the pulses (1 and 4). Most say the best pattern is DUD-DUD because it maintains proper tone and emphasis on the second pulse of the meter, and I have to agree. It feels clumsy at first, but it's learnable, and it's useful when you get to 9/8, since a strict alternation in that meter will turn you around on every other bar. Some use DUD-UDU very effectively, but it does give a different tone. Some use DDU-DDU, but I don't care for the back-beat-ish sound of that one.

Chords are equally hard to describe, but if you're familiar with DADGAD, you probably already have a handle on it. Regular fit-to-note chords are certainly acceptable, but the full sound of the music comes from chord substitutions (some of which don't make sense on paper) and "chord scales." Also, it's fairly common to mix things up a bit so you're playing different positions on the same chords from verse to verse, and sometimes different chords, throughout the tune.

I hope this makes sense. The best thing is to find some good records and listen to them repeatedly until you get a feel for things. John Doyle has an excellent record called "Evening Comes Early" which is a good starting point. He plays Irish rhythm mostly in drop-D, but the style is there nonetheless. He also has an instruction video on the Homespun label; though it's geared toward backing up traditional Irish tunes, the lessons can be applied to most any songs that can fit the genre.

I'm drawing a blank for the moment on others. There are many fine guitarists in this genre, but a lot of them focus on fingerstyle as opposed to rhythm.

[Jim Tozier]

As Chris said, this is a topic that defies a quick explanation.

One book that I think does a good job of covering the basics is Sarah McQuaid's The Irish DADGAD Guitar Book, published by Ossian. There is information about the different types of Celtic rhythms, how to play melodies or provide accompaniment, and it includes an extensive DADGAD chord chart. Worth checking out, in my opinion.

[astrummer]

If I understand the suggestions.....

As far as seeing the rhythms and strum patterns John Doyle is a good example even though....."He plays Irish rhythm mostly in drop-D, but the style is there nonetheless". The implication perhaps being that DADGAD is more prevalent?

As far as having something systematically laid out a good place to start is
The Irish DADGAD Guitar Book.....

And I suspect I probably should have posted the question in the "Songwriting, playing & technique" section.

Thanks for the advice

[Jim Tozier]

Originally Posted by astrummer

The implication perhaps being that DADGAD is more prevalent?

I believe DADGAD is the most popular Celtic tuning--for both fingerstyle and strumming. The modal feel of most Celtic music lends itself nicely to an open modal tuning.

There are plenty of exceptions, of course. Not many players do a lot of Celtic stuff in standard tuning, though.

[cpmusic]

Originally Posted by astrummer

As far as seeing the rhythms and strum patterns John Doyle is a good example even though....."He plays Irish rhythm mostly in drop-D, but the style is there nonetheless". The implication perhaps being that DADGAD is more prevalent?

Possibly, but there are no rules. I know a few guitarists who use both drop-D and DADGAD, partly because of what the tune or song seems to require, and partly for a change of pace. I do this as well, and while it may also be that I'm still relatively new to DADGAD, I find there are some songs that just sound better in drop-D or standard tuning.

I recently bought Sarah McQuaid's book. I haven't gotten around to getting down to business with it so I can't comment on it yet, but it gets very good notices. There's also a companion CD for the book.

[astrummer]

Originally Posted by Jim Tozier

I believe DADGAD is the most popular Celtic tuning--for both fingerstyle and strumming. The modal feel of most Celtic music lends itself nicely to an open modal tuning.

There are plenty of exceptions, of course. Not many players do a lot of Celtic stuff in standard tuning, though.

I did some searching on the net about "modal music" to try and better understand your comments. Are we talking about modal as it seems to me to be sometimes, but not always, used in the sense of "no 3" (major or minor) version of chords and scales?

The little experience I have playing in DADGAD has made me realize that including the major or minor 3rd in a chord is often more of a stretch or contortion than what my fingers can make! So I have naturally gravitated towards the "no 3" chords ( modal?) especially on barre chords.

I'll be getting Sarah McQuaid's book soon, perhaps this topic will be covered there.

[Jim Tozier]

Originally Posted by astrummer

Are we talking about modal as it seems to me to be sometimes, but not always, used in the sense of "no 3" (major or minor) version of chords and scales?

That's one way to look at it, although perhaps not the best explanation. Most modal chords do tend to replace the 3rd with either the 2nd or the 4th, though.

"Modal" simply refers to playing in a "mode" rather than a major or minor scale. Modes are derived by taking a major scale, and changing the note that you start and end with. For example, if we take a C scale, with no sharpas and flats, we get C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, right? The major scale is also referred to as the Ionian mode. By starting on a different note, but using the same notes that make up the C scale, you'll be playing in a different mode:

Ionian: C D E F G A B C
Dorian: D E F G A B C D
Phrygian: E F G A B C D E
Lydian: F G A B C D E F
Mixolydian: G A B C D E F G
Aeolian: A B C D E F G A (this is an A minor scale--the relative minor for C)
Locrian: B C D E F G A B

Much Celtic music is centered around the Dorian mode (which sounds minor-ish) and the Mixolydian mode (which sounds major-ish). Now, how do we figure out how to play in D Dorian or D Mixolydian?

Since Dorian is the second mode, you need to know the major scale that has D as the second note. (We already know it's C, since I listed it above.) Then, you play From D to D, using the key signature of the major scale that has the targeted note as the second step. In this case, it's C, and there are no sharps or flats in C, so you play D E F G A B C D.

If you wanted to play in G Dorian, you'd have to know that G is the second step in an F major scale (F G A Bb C D E F), and then play G to G using the key signature for F: one flat (Bb). this gives you G A Bb C D E F G. Voila! G Dorian.

Another way to think of the Dorian mode is a major scale with a lowered 3rd and lowered 7th. G major is G A B C D E F# G, so when you lower the third (B becomes Bb) and the 7th (F# becomes F), you end up with the same result: G A Bb C D E F G. G Dorian again.

Mixolydian starts on the 5th step of a major scale, so if you want to play in D Mixolydian, you need to figure out which major scale has D as the 5th step. guitarists are used to knowing the 5th (it's the other note in a power chord, for example), so the 5th can usually be figured pretty quickly. D is the 5th step in a G major scale: G A B C D E F# G. So, to play in D Mixolydian, we go from D to D using the key signature for G major: D E F# G A B C D.

Want to play in G Mixolydian? G is the 5th step in a C major scale: C D E F G A B C. So, G Mixolydian is G A B C D E F G (G to G using the key signature for C major).

Another way to think of the Mixolydian mode is a major scale with a lowered 7th:

G major: G A B C D E F# G
G Mixolydian: G A B C D E F G (the 7th step is lowered from F# to F)

C major: C D E F G A B C
C Mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb C (7th step is lowered from B to Bb)

The little experience I have playing in DADGAD has made me realize that including the major or minor 3rd in a chord is often more of a stretch or contortion than what my fingers can make!

Here's an easy, moveable major and minor chord shape in DADGAD. It does involve some muting of strings, though:

Major: 5xx45x (or 3xx23x, 4xx34x, 8xx78x, etc.)
Minor: 5xx35x (or 3xx13x, 4xx24x, 8xx68x, etc.)

Basically, you are playing the root on the sixth string, the 5th on the second string, and either the 3rd or the flat 3rd on the third string.

I hope all this rambling makes some sort of sense. It's tough to cover all this info briefly!

[astrummer]

Originally Posted by Jim Tozier

I hope all this rambling makes some sort of sense. It's tough to cover all this info briefly!

Actually, its generous of you to cover it at all

And yes it does make some sense and it will make more as I continue to ponder it.

[cpmusic]

Originally Posted by Jim Tozier

Here's an easy, moveable major and minor chord shape in DADGAD. It does involve some muting of strings, though:

Major: 5xx45x (or 3xx23x, 4xx34x, 8xx78x, etc.)
Minor: 5xx35x (or 3xx13x, 4xx24x, 8xx68x, etc.)

If I may, I'd like to add a couple of simple variations:

Major: 55x4xx
Minor: 55x3xx

Major: 5x545x
Minor: 5x535x

I like these because I find it a little easier to damp the 4th and 5th strings individually rather than together, and the first variation is nice because it draws all the guitar's focus onto the lower strings. This is effective for creating variety, especially when played with the strumming hand muting at the bridge. (High chords with no bass are also useful, but I'm just beginning to delve into them.)

Then again, sometimes I don't damp the 1st and 2nd strings, using them like drones instead. As long as I'm in D (or whatever the root is, if I'm using a capo) it sounds interesting.

Also, in the second variation, I get an open chord (no third) by damping the 3rd string. Open chords are great because they have more of a drone quality and often work better, at least with Irish folk tunes. Also, since there's no third, they can stand in for either major or minor chords. The basic D and A chords in DADGAD are such chords:

D: 000200
A: x02202

BTW, if you're serious about DADGAD, I'd like to recommend the Quick Draw Capo, as it stays on the guitar and allows capoing on the fly. Although it's possible to play in some other keys without a capo, there are limits, and I don't know of a capo that's as fast as the Quick Draw.

[Jim Tozier]

More ways of thinking about Modes . . .

If you don't want to think about key signatures and notes, you can just use patterns of whole and half steps.

W = Whole step = 2 frets
H = Half step = 1 fret

Ionian (Major): W-W-H-W-W-W-H
Dorian: W-H-W-W-W-H-W
Phrygian: H-W-W-W-H-W-W
Lydian: W-W-W-H-W-W-H
Mixolydian: W-W-H-W-W-H-W
Aeolian: W-H-W-W-H-W-W
Locrian: H-W-W-H-W-W-W

So, to use D as an example:

D Ionian (D Major): D E F# G A B C# D
D Dorian: D E F G A B C D
D Phyrgian: D Eb F G A Bb C D
D Lydian: D E F# G# A B C# D
D Mixolydian D E F# G A B C# D
D Aeolian: D E F G A Bb C D
D Locrian: D Eb F G Ab Bb C D

Try playing all of the modes to get a feel for how they sound . . .

[JedimasterPaul]

Jim - great info. since we already have a mapletrees, maybe you can be 'Cedartrees'

I admit to getting headaches when I start thinking about the modes too much...

[Jim Tozier]

Originally Posted by JedimasterPaul

I admit to getting headaches when I start thinking about the modes too much...

I'll let you in on a little secret . . .

I can tell you all about modes. I can sit here all day long and tell you what notes make up E Phrygian and Bb Locrian, etc. But I have never--not even once--played a song and thought to myself, "Hey, this is Mixolydian!" or sat down to write a song and decided, "I think I'll do something in G Dorian."

[cpmusic]

Originally Posted by Jim Tozier

But I have never--not even once--played a song and thought to myself, "Hey, this is Mixolydian!" or sat down to write a song and decided, "I think I'll do something in G Dorian."

I think that's true for most folk musicians. Most of the folks I know think of Dorian as "minor, but a little different," and Mixolydian as "not quite major" -- if they think of them at all.

[astrummer]

I now have the materials by John Doyle and Sarah McQuaid. Both were excellent recommendations and seem to be up there with best of the materials that I have for standard tuning.

The other thing that's helping me learn alot is a litte freeware program that gives alternate tuning insights especially when set to numbers instead of notes.

Its called alternate tunings chord and scale finder and is availabe at:

http://www.taropatch.net/tuning_applet.htm