Build a guitar with no Glue?

[Howard Klepper]

1) What would be the point?

and

2) Not gonna happen.

[rogthefrog]

The braces could conceivably be attached using French dovetails, though it would require serious precision and/or a thicker top on the receiving end.

[DamianL]

You could go single piece top, I guess?

D

[The Bard Rocks]

It's simple: you take a big block of wood, a knife, and carve away everything that isn't a guitar.


Someone had to say it.

[Rodger Knox]

I'd be worried about buzzes. Unless it was carved from a single piece, all those mechanical joints would have to stay pretty tight. Humidity control might be necessary....

[Brad Goodman]

It has already been done....

No glue-water

The only caveat is that it must remain and be played in sub freezing temperatures.......

[Zandit75]

Looks like you would need to be a Japanese trained Carpenter to do some of the joints you are proposing. Some of the joinery they produce are mind blowing, and can be strong than anything produced using nails, screws or glue.

[dekutree64]

Interesting idea! Now you've got me tempted to try it, too...

Fingerboard: Full-length sliding dovetail. To get it tight, dry the fingerboard out to shrink it, and humidify the neck to expand the slot. Slide it together, and when equalized they should lock together more or less permanently. Use a flatsawn fingerboard so it will expand more horizontally than vertically, which will cause the angle of the dovetail to pinch tighter.

Soundboard: Braceless cedar. Manipulate the thickness to control stiffness (thick in the upper bout, medium around the bridge, thin around the perimeter). On a 00 or smaller, it gets too stiff before it gets too heavy. Use a tornavoz to support the soundhole, wedged in against the back. Carved rosette.

Back: You're going to need something going across the grain to distribute the stress of the tornavoz. Could have braces joined by sliding dovetails. I doubt that would be structurally strong enough to benefit the soundboard, but should still raise the resonant frequency.

Soundboard-to-rim joining: Drill a zillion little holes at an angle through the soundboard/lining/side and wrap string around and around. May need some sort of shallow hardwood purfling to protect the soft soundboard wood from the string. Maybe even could have some thin binding tied into the bundle as well, to make it look nicer from the side.

Bridge: Route a pocket into the soundboard, so the front edge of the bridge is pushed up against a wall. Then drill holes through the bridge behind the saddle, and through the soundboard behind the bridge, and wrap string around and around to hold the bridge down and bridge plate up.

The headblock should be held in place by the neck dovetail pinching the sides against it, and fingerboard dovetail pinching the soundboard against it. Not sure about joining it to the back, though. It's not strictly necessary, but does improve structural stability.

Not sure about the tail block. I suppose you could use more string, but there's probably something more elegant.

[printer2]

Neck as a one piece. Spanish heel neck joint with wedges capturing the sides. Elevated fretboard so no need for glue here. Tail block also captures the sides with wedges. Not going to have the round curve of the butt but will have a post and beam look to it. Same goes for the top to side interface. Think of the binding being ten times bigger with two slots in it, one for the side and one for the top or back. Little high aspect ratio wedges installed on the inside for the top first, the back done from the soundhole. The final wedge or pin to put them all into compression. Or hundreds of holes and little wood pins as joints.

I think you have no choice but to use a floating bridge and tailpiece, doubt you can do a mechanical joint and still have it sound like a guitar. Since this does not look like our standard guitar we could have a beam inside the guitar from the neck to the tail block to take up the string pull. Going down the center of the body so you can get your hand in the soundhole. This is a dred, right? Would be trick to do on a smaller guitar. Not that this sounds easy.

Top and back braces are difficult. Back not so much as they can be more substantial and pinned with hole and dowel joints. The top, I see a carved top as practical, not sure how you would do a normal flat top with braces.

Oh well, so much for doing something productive tonight.

[Bill Yellow]

Elastic bands could hold the box together.

[M Sarad]

Hollowcaster...

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

1) What would be the point?

and

2) Not gonna happen.

Evidently the point is the challenge and that's why, today, I'm starting to build a guitar entirely out of mayonnaise.

[Bill Yellow]

Originally Posted by runamuck

Evidently the point is the challenge and that's why, today, I'm starting to build a guitar entirely out of mayonnaise.

Hot hide mayonnaise?

[gerberguitars]

Some really good responses! I like that I've at least got a few minds turning. I was a little worried checking back in on the forum, that I would only get ridicule and skepticism, but it sounds like a few of you are interested.

First of all, let me clarify a little bit further on my intentions with the post.

- The guitar would not be built with the expectation that it would be handled in the same way as a normal guitar, specifically in regards to humidity. Nor would it be built to suit any customers' reasonable expectations for how it should hold up over time. THIS IS AN EXERCISE IN CREATIVITY, a challenge for my woodworking and joinery skills, and really just for fun. I imagine it being a talking piece, sometime to take to shows, that kind of thing. I think it would be fun to bring it to a show in pieces in a box, put it together, and let it be played. So please keep that in mind when offering constructive criticism.

- The expectation for material use is that it would be made of wood, and not alternative materials like CF, plastic, etc.

- The intention is not to add a "no glue" guitar model to my guitar lineup. Ha, although it could make a for a good travel guitar! So concerns about making a guitar that will sell...that's missing the point. As Mark Hatcher said, his mind is "infested" by the challenge of thinking through the process, and that is the point. To reiterate one of my points in the original post, I find myself thinking about this particular challenge often, and so I thought it would be interesting to try and connect with other like minds who may be interested.

- The soundboard and back must have braces. The challenge of including braces must not be overcome by simply making an overly thick top, or by carving the braces into the top as one piece. They must be joined, attached, in whatever way possible to achieve the end result of a thin vibrating membrane in the ballpark of a normal soundboard thickness, supported by braces.

- At this point I'm not willing to consider a tailpiece and floating bridge. I first want to go down the road of a fixed bridge towards the center of the lower boat, as is customary on SS guitar. Of course, it could prove to be too difficult, in which case the archtop model could work.

- What else am I missing in the way of expectations....oh yea, no string. For me anyways. Just joinery, wedges, pins, etc.

- Tuners? I want to say normal tuners, but what do you think?

This brings me to a story about a meeting that I had with one of the worlds master carvers and artisans, David Warther. I think he is a third generation carver, and it's his Grandfather who first started making model trains out of wood and ivory. The grandpa has a museum in Dover, OH, and David's museum in is Sugarcreek OH just down the road from Dover. David also has the company guitarpartsandmore.com which supplies ivory and bone products to several different industries. Here are a few pics of what David does
[IMG]Pinta_154 by adrienne mickler, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]Ulu_Burun_05 by adrienne mickler, on Flickr[/IMG]

As I was in his shop looking at something that he was working on, I asked him what kind of glue he used. Glue!!??? "Glue only last a couple hundred years." He continued, "I want my art to be around for thousands of years." He went on to explain that Ivory will easily last that long if it's cared for properly, and that he doesn't use a drop of glue anywhere. Or any other type of pre manufactured fastener of any kind. Everything is joined together.

Okay, just to point out some of the craziness of what he does. I didn't notice the pencil in the one pic but once you notice the pencil, it gives a good perspective on how detailed his work it. Also, the ropes are all ivory. I'm not sure how he does it. They look like they have to be in the .007"-.010" range.

So David would be part of my inspiration for such a project. He proves what the human hand and mind are capable of, given the correct amounts of patience and persistence. And skill.

Thanks again for all in the input, skepticism, and interest. It may be some time before I get to start, but I will be sure to document the process here, whether it's a failure or success. I guess I have no choice but to put my pride aside and be willing to fall on my face. Until then, take care. And if anyone else gets inspired to try for themselves, please do!

[Explorer]

I once played a fiddle made from interlocking pieces of wood, like a 3d puzzle, but construxted to not come apart. It had a rigid neck-through-to-tailpiece design, with the top and back being held in place by a wooden rod piercing through the body with a flange on one end, and two holes in the other. One hole, closest to the body and the one taking the task of compression, had a hardwood rectangle through it, and the other hole had a piece of softwood whcih had apparently been compressed while wet, left to dry with the end compressed, and then steamed after fitting through its hole. Its only function was to have its ends, which stuck out, prevent the hardwood rectangle from sliding loose. The hardwood was the linchpin of the instrument.

I seem to recall the top and bottom being carved, so no additional bracing was required. If I was going to make a guitar with no bracing and no glue, I'd be looking into making a resonator with a turned wooden resonator cone. That would also allow me to use a screw-in resonator grill (wood, of course!) with the matching screw pattern as part of the thicker top's edge. So the whole assembly would be lime a reverse mason jar made of wood.

If I wasn't going to use any fasteners or glue, the fretboard would have to be part of the neck, with narrow gaps cut to allow pounding in hardwood frets. As I wouldn't be using mechanical tuners, I'd have to rely on pegs, so I'd be using nylon strings which wouldn't chew up the wood frets.

----

That ivory ship is interesting, although the lack of need for braces due to a complete lack of tension makes it irrelevant as an example of how to do a guitar build.