What I think about tone

[The Bard Rocks]

In general, I'll go along with this list, but would tweak it here and there, add and subtract. My biggest difference is over tonewoods and I think most folks here would go along with the thought that they definitely color the sound you get. And, though I rarely use them, I just might add picks to the list of things that count. You could convince me otherwise on this.

Your notion about players waking up rather than guitars echoes my own thoughts. That's not to say a single guitar here and there might do this, but I'll bet as a generality, you are correct. Does anyone experience this with multiple guitars, especially on the same day?

And your ideas on guitars "opening up" with age and playing time have been bandied about forever, with people getting upset on the topic. I cannot say that I have seen this happen; my memory of a particular sound becomes increasingly suspicious over time and I'll bet that is true to one degree or another for most of us. But not everyone: there are some whom I tend to believe when they say they feel guitars really do open up - but does this happen with ALL guitars? Certainly not ALL of us experience it.

So my own list for major influences on tone would include, in no particular order :
1) wood choice
2) builder (his bracing, thicknessing, finish - all the things that makes his signature sound)
3) body style
4) music chosen
5) surroundings in which you play
6) the guitarist, his ability and style
7) the listener (which can be the guitarist), how he perceives sound, the "education" of his ears...
8) strings and, maybe, picks

All these, combined with a myriad of smaller things, make up what you hear and what you consider to be an instrument's "tone".

[SprintBob]

In my experience, I disagree on tonewoods (my Taylor 522e versus my Taylor 812ce (both with same strings) have different tone responses), picks (my plastic versus nylon versus carbon fiber picks are three different tone responses as well as different in pick thickness with same material), strings (obvious). Great post, thanks!

[fazool]

[fuman]

I have a qualified disagreement with almost everything on your "not important" list.

Here's the qualification: You cite player's ability as crucial, but luthier skill and quality workmanship are the most important factors affecting tone. I've played parlor guitars that sounded loud and huge, maple and rosewood guitars that didn't sound like the stereotype and all kinds of variations. Gifted builders can surprie you.

I think tonewood has a big difference in the way a guitar sounds, but the quality of the wood is more important to tone than the type, in my opinion. Maybe some people get lucky (who among us hasn't stumbled upon a sweet-sounding mid-grade instrument?), but I believe real good builders start, always, with good-sounding tonewood, and they know enough about what they're doing to make those qualitative choices. The craft in putting that wood together is the most critical factor in producing great sound.

Just my two cents.

[devellis]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Long on common sense and reality, short on mystique and myth. Bravo

Respectfully, if it lacks evidence, then it's mystique and myth. So I reach pretty much the opposite conclusion to yours.

So-called "common sense" in the absence of evidence is often indistinguishable from myth. It may not be the conventional mystique and myth but it has no more credible evidence than the other stuff does. So, it may be closer to your myth or my myth than some other myths are; but absent, evidence, it's still myth.

My personal myth is that everything makes a difference to varying degrees (some trivial) and the effects are multiplicative rather than additive. Consequently, evaluating individual impacts is difficult because of the interactive effects of various components. But this, of course, is just another myth lacking in credible evidence. It squares with my understanding and experience but I have no empirical basis for asserting it as fact.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by coloradoman

There are so many discussions of the effect on “tone”. I thought I might summarize what I think makes a difference and what doesn’t. What does your list look like?

To start out – I had a prof who when I proposed a research topic said, “Yes it is a difference, but everything in the world is different from everything else at some level. The real question is, “Is it a difference that makes a difference?”” So my general stance is “yes, of course ANYTHING you do to a guitar will make a difference BUT is it a difference that makes a difference?”

Most important:

• Music you play
• Skill
• Room acoustics (huge)
• Warming up
• Guitar design
• Strings (old or new – not brand)
• Thickness of pick
• Guitar type (dred vs parlor – in between not so much - design can overwhelm)
• String gauge

No difference:

• Bridge pins – no effect, just go for pretty
• Nut – no effect
• Saddle – as long as it is hard and stiff – no difference plastic/synthetic is as good as anything
• Pick material – plastic is as good as it gets. Thickness (stiffness) is all that matters. I’ve seen people compare expensive picks to violin bows – which can be extremely expensive. No picks are not the same, not even close. This is usually followed by, “if you have a $6000 guitar surely spending $40 on a pick makes sense”. No it doesn’t. Picks are cheap things. A $.30 pick is not an insult to you or your guitar.
• Opening up – seems to be two schools on this:
• School 1: Drying out/settling in – glue, finish, bracing.
• School 2: Vibrations of playing mystically align the wood, or the wood “learns” the vibrations, or the more pseudo-scientific assertion - it breaks down the cell structure of the wood allowing everything to vibrate more freely.
• At least the first school claim actually happens. But unless it results in the guitar warping or falling apart it makes no difference.
• Waking up
• Guitars do not “wake up” (or go to sleep). It is YOU! Anytime I read someone saying, “Yeah, it started out really stiff with a harsh tone. Then after about 20 minutes it really woke up.” That is you warming up and getting into the groove with that guitar as you change your playing style to the particular guitar. This is a weird view in my opinion. Why do you want to attribute your own ability to make a guitar sound better after playing it for awhile to some magical property of the “wood waking up”? Isn’t easier to believe, “Yeah this will sound a better once I warm up.”
• Temp and humidity (only in extremes and then slight)
• Armrests, cutaways, bevels – no effect
• Capos – seriously?
• Tonewood - in isolated acoustic environments, you can sometimes hear a difference (depending on design which tends to overwhelm wood) but once I start playing I think it is very marginal at best.

So there you have it. Just my opinion. I know many disagree but now you know what I think (for what that is worth - I think it will get you a cup of coffee if you throw in $1.50).

Talent, practice and imagination trump almost everything though.

Well, you're wrong on a few things, but that's OK.

You left out string type. I.E., phosphor bronze vs nickel wrap = big difference.

You are very wrong about pick selection in dismissing pick material. Nylon vs hard plastic makes a big difference.

The first four things you list as "most important" are irrelevant to the tone of the guitar per se.

The last two things you list as least important in the most important section have much more impact that you attribute.

But it is an interesting list.

[RevRuss]

Tone is everything to me!

I buy a guitar based on it's tone as is (not wanting to do many mods to get the tone I prefer)

I prefer "warm, woody, round" tones with a strong bass "E, a, d, strings.

I do not like "bright" sounding guitars and pianos. That's just me!

I've done nothing to my guitars to change their tone other than trying a few different kinds of strings.

Russ

[williejohnson]

I can see by the responses that some of you still think that someone other than you cares about the tone of your instrument

[Phelonious Ponk]

Originally Posted by fuman

Here's the qualification: You cite player's ability as crucial, but luthier skill and quality workmanship are the most important factors affecting tone.

I mean no offense, but it you really believe that, you need to pay a lot more attention to your right hand....well, unless you're a lefty. The most important factor affecting tone is technique. I'm a little shocked that's even in dispute.

P

[billder99]

This is a good thread OP... I don't agree with all that you said (for instance, a guitar "waking up"... some really do wake up daily, believe it or not) but food for thought. I have my beer, sitting back to watch the fireworks.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by coloradoman

There are so many discussions of the effect on “tone”. I thought I might summarize what I think makes a difference and what doesn’t. What does your list look like?

To start out – I had a prof who when I proposed a research topic said, “Yes it is a difference, but everything in the world is different from everything else at some level. The real question is, “Is it a difference that makes a difference?”” So my general stance is “yes, of course ANYTHING you do to a guitar will make a difference BUT is it a difference that makes a difference?”

Most important:

• Music you play
• Skill
• Room acoustics (huge)
• Warming up
• Guitar design
• Strings (old or new – not brand)
• Thickness of pick
• Guitar type (dred vs parlor – in between not so much - design can overwhelm)
• String gauge

No difference:

• Bridge pins – no effect, just go for pretty
• Nut – no effect
• Saddle – as long as it is hard and stiff – no difference plastic/synthetic is as good as anything
• Pick material – plastic is as good as it gets. Thickness (stiffness) is all that matters. I’ve seen people compare expensive picks to violin bows – which can be extremely expensive. No picks are not the same, not even close. This is usually followed by, “if you have a $6000 guitar surely spending $40 on a pick makes sense”. No it doesn’t. Picks are cheap things. A $.30 pick is not an insult to you or your guitar.
• Opening up – seems to be two schools on this:
• School 1: Drying out/settling in – glue, finish, bracing.
• School 2: Vibrations of playing mystically align the wood, or the wood “learns” the vibrations, or the more pseudo-scientific assertion - it breaks down the cell structure of the wood allowing everything to vibrate more freely.
• At least the first school claim actually happens. But unless it results in the guitar warping or falling apart it makes no difference.
• Waking up
• Guitars do not “wake up” (or go to sleep). It is YOU! Anytime I read someone saying, “Yeah, it started out really stiff with a harsh tone. Then after about 20 minutes it really woke up.” That is you warming up and getting into the groove with that guitar as you change your playing style to the particular guitar. This is a weird view in my opinion. Why do you want to attribute your own ability to make a guitar sound better after playing it for awhile to some magical property of the “wood waking up”? Isn’t easier to believe, “Yeah this will sound a better once I warm up.”
• Temp and humidity (only in extremes and then slight)
• Armrests, cutaways, bevels – no effect
• Capos – seriously?
• Tonewood - in isolated acoustic environments, you can sometimes hear a difference (depending on design which tends to overwhelm wood) but once I start playing I think it is very marginal at best.

So there you have it. Just my opinion. I know many disagree but now you know what I think (for what that is worth - I think it will get you a cup of coffee if you throw in $1.50).

Talent, practice and imagination trump almost everything though.

Hi Coloradoman,
As far as I'm concerned you are preaching to the choir: That is as factual a list as I've ever seen posted here.

Stand tall, man.

Howard Emerson

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Hi Coloradoman,
As far as I'm concerned you are preaching to the choir: That is as factual a list as I've ever seen posted here.

Stand tall, man.

Howard Emerson

You don't think saddle material makes a difference?

That's the main thing on his "no difference" list that I don't agree with at all. I know for a fact on one guitar I previously owned, switching from a plastic material to bone made a dramatic difference for the good (to my ears). But on another, I did not like the sound of the bone saddle. It depends on the guitar, but it definitely does make a difference.

[RustyZombie]

It seems to be a common occurrence that if one cannot hear a difference from a particular change, that they tend to believe that it cannot make a difference.

While most of us know that isn't true, I can't exactly fault someone for trusting their own hearing over others. They just need to keep in mind that others have different ears and preferences than they do, and what is "true" for them isn't necessarily true for everyone else.

[mhs]

My compliments to the original poster who managed to put together one of the most enjoyable and sensible posts I've yet read here.

Many thanks

[Silly Moustache]

Well Coloradoman, you obviously wanted to be provocative, and you have got many to agree/disagree with you.

Too many questionable statements to bother arguing, but I would respectfully suggest that you research a little more.