Greven Quote...What Do You Guys Think?

[Treenewt]

The recent thread on Tonewood Differences contained a link to a very informative pdf written by John Greven, "Voicing the Guitar."

As a player, and as someone who one day hopes to try his hand at building, the article was a wealth of info for me. I'd love to go and hear John speak someday. But I digress.

Near the end of the pdf, Mr. Graven makes this statement:

"My feeling is, if you have to use mediums along with a long scale on your guitar in order for it to sound good, the guitar is overbuilt. Any guitar should sound almost as powerful and full voiced with lights as it does with mediums."

That made me stop. I re-read it just to be sure I heard him right.

I used mediums on my two dreads, and while one of them would qualify for an "overbuilt" comment (my DC-16), my D18 is anything but overbuilt in my mind. It's light as a feather, scalloped braced in the GE style. It's powerful, but sensitive too.

I recently tried lights on it, and while it sounded good, it certainly didn't sound as full or rich as it does with .13s on it.

What do you guys think? I'm not claiming to know more than Mr. Greven, nor have I ever played one of his guitars, but many of you have played vintage guitars or reproductions. What are your thoughts on this?

[bohemian]

I agree with Greven.

I use 12's and 11's... any more is overkill or a dead guitar.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by Treenewt

I recently tried lights on it, and while it sounded good, it certainly didn't sound as full or rich as it does with .13s on it.

I think what he means is if it sounds good with lights, you've got a guitar that is not too overbuilt. I don't think he said that it should or shouldn't sound better with .13s on it. More like, if your guitar only sounds good with 13s on it, and sounds bad with lights, then it's probably overbuilt.

[Glennwillow]

Even a lightly built guitar, assuming that it's built strong enough for medium strings, is going to sound different with medium gauge strings (0.013" = high E) compared to light gauge (12s). Some people like that sound; some don't. And some people like the playability of light strings. I played some Greven guitars recently that had light gauge, some that had, I believe, Bluegrass sets on them, and these guitars came from John's shop.

I agree with Bill's interpretation of John Greven's comments. I don't think John Greven means you can't or shouldn't use medium strings. I think he means that the guitar should be able to sound good with light gauge strings.

- Glenn

[Treenewt]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

I think what he means is if it sounds good with lights, you've got a guitar that is not too overbuilt. I don't think he said that it should or shouldn't sound better with .13s on it. More like, if your guitar only sounds good with 13s on it, and sounds bad with lights, then it's probably overbuilt.

That makes more sense to me. Thanks Bill. I hadn't thought of it that way. I would definitely say that's how I felt with lights on my D18. It still sounded great, and different, in fact, but not as good for how i playas it does with mediums.

[Phelonious Ponk]

I agree with John as well. If a guitar just doesn't cut it with lights, I'm not interested. That doesn't mean a given guitar wouldn't sound better with mediums (or not), it would certainly sound different, but it shouldn't need them to get out of the dead zone. My Gibson has a short scale and an Adirondack top (and gobs of headroom), and it does just fine with lights, sounds full when played gently. That's the way they should be. They shouldn't require big strings and a heavy hand to come alive.

P

[fazool]

I will paraphrase C.F. Martin IV who said something along the lines of "a good guitar is built so that it's just about to self destruct"

I took his meaning to be that it should be delicate and thin and light and flexible, like the skin on a timpani as opposed to the lid on an oil drum.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by fazool

I will paraphrase C.F. Martin IV who said something along the lines of "a good guitar is built so that it's just about to self destruct"

I took his meaning to be that it should be delicate and thin and light and flexible, like the skin on a timpani as opposed to the lid on an oil drum...

...and has to go in for a neck reset every other year ...

[Transylvania]

I had a similar situation. Kevin Ryan recommended mediums for my Nightingale--his brand that were a slightly different mix than most. I had been using lights. Tried the mediums and really didn't like the way the guitar played and the sudden lack of overtones. I went back to lights and all the magic returned.

Disclaimer: Mr. Ryan has probably already forgotten more about guitars than I will ever hope to know. I regard him at the very top of his profession--I just didn't agree with him on this one particular point.

[rmyAddison]

I think I don't let other people decide what my ears want to hear, seriously.

I no longer have any dreads, but I string all my OM's with 13's tuned down 1/2step, which is about the same pressure as lights at full concert pitch. I get a very full rich sound considering the smaller non dread/jumbo body. You don't get the same sound with lighter strings down 1/2 step, but I certainly won't tell others what they need to do

All my guitars are very lightly built and I don't like the sound of 12's as much. This suits me, what someone else prefers with their guitars is their business.

Thin strings and thin picks have a thinner sounds "to me", suit yourself.....

[Quake17]

I've had a Greven Herringbone D for 9 years and I think it was built on '03. I've met with John on numerous occasions and I know he is proponent of building as lightly as practicable. I remember him telling me that the bear claw Sitka top was one of the stiffest he'd come across and recommended using mediums, which I have always done.

[sawdustdave]

One thing I learned I need to consider when listening to my guitar:

I cannot hear it like my audience. I'm in the wrong place, above and behind it a bit. So, hand it to someone you trust and ask them to play if for you. That's how it sounds...

[cke]

My D-18 is very light, tremendously responsive and absolutely stable. It has never worn anything except 13's and likely never will. I want that wonderful Martin dread growl and power.

FWIW my go to string for it is now Tony Rice Monels or DR Sunbeam 13's both of which feel more easy to finger than the 7200's it came with but sound full and rich.

[sdelsolray]

Well, regardless of the guitar, the woods, the builder, over built, perfectly built or under built, mediums strings will sound and behave differently than light gauge strings.

John Greven qualified his claim with "sound good". That subjective element overpowers the remainder of his claim. It invites disagreement or contrary opinion.

[biben]

It wasn't a claim since he was describing his feeling and being very clear that way that it is subjective...