Tuning Insanity

[Purfle Haze]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Tune with an electronic tuner, check a few chords in the key you're going to play in, sweeten a bit to make it acceptable and play music.

Use the same technique for any fretted instrument and quit sweating the small stuff.

Here's my rant:
http://web.archive.org/web/201603282...tionTips3.html

I liked your rant.

[agfsteve]

They should make a tuner that can be set by the user to show "in tune" (go green, needle in the middle, whatever) at a chosen pitch for each string. Basically, after you've done your sweetening, you then set the tuner to remember the tuning, post-sweetening, and from then on it tunes to that instead of what it thinks is perfect tuning.

You could then buy a separate tuner for each guitar and set each tuner to each individual guitar's needs.

[mattbn73]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

They should make a tuner that can be set by the user to show "in tune" (go green, needle in the middle, whatever) at a chosen pitch for each string. Basically, after you've done your sweetening, you then set the tuner to remember the tuning, post-sweetening, and from then on it tunes to that instead of what it thinks is perfect tuning.

You could then buy a separate tuner for each guitar and set each tuner to each individual guitar's needs.

My free tuner app on my phone already does this. G strings for android. I'm sure others have it as well.

[Stomp]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

They should make a tuner that can be set by the user to show "in tune" (go green, needle in the middle, whatever) at a chosen pitch for each string. Basically, after you've done your sweetening, you then set the tuner to remember the tuning, post-sweetening, and from then on it tunes to that instead of what it thinks is perfect tuning.

You could then buy a separate tuner for each guitar and set each tuner to each individual guitar's needs.

All Peterson tuners do this.

Disclosure below

[Nextguitar]

Originally Posted by mickthemiller

I sometimes spend what seems like ages trying to get a guitar in tune. An E chord sounds ok then I play a G or a D and it sounds off. I can tune with a tuner and by ear with the string to string tuning and all seems ok until the chords are played. I now tune with the tuner and then listen to the three chords above and adjust until all sound ok. It does seem to all have become more complicated as I've aged, so could be my ears, although I've often blamed the guitar which is not good as the old adage states, a bad workman always blames his tools.

Electronic tuners tune to equal temperament. The guitar’s frets are located for equal temperament. In equal temperament, the fifth of a chord will not quite match the third harmonic of the root, creating a beat frequency which will make every chord seem slightly out of tune. When you “sweeten” the tuning for playing in a particular key, you are adjusting those fifth intervals to remove the beat. But it’s only possible to sweeten a couple of chords at a time, and doing so makes other chords worse.
For tunes with few chords (e.g., folk), sweetening for a key can sound great. But if a tune has a lot of chords or modulations sweetening can make a mess of things.
For playing complex tunes I generally try to tune as close to equal temperament as possible, and resist temptation to sweeten the fifths of certain chords. And for jazz, few tunes require the use of “cowboy chords” so why sweeten for them and ruin everything else?

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by Nextguitar

Electronic tuners tune to equal temperament. The guitar’s fretboard is designed for equal temperament. In equal temperament, the fifth of a chord will not quite match the third harmonic of the root, creating a beat frequency which will make every chord seem slightly out of tune. When you “sweeten” the tuning for playing in a particular key, you are adjusting those fifth intervals to remove the beat. But it’s only possible to sweeten a couple of chords at a time, and doing so makes other chords worse. For tunes with few chords (e.g., folk), sweetening for a key can sound great. But if a tune has a lot of chords or modulations (as for most jazz), sweetening can make a mess of things. For these reasons I generally try to tune as close to equal temperament as possible, and resist temptation to sweeten the fifths of certain chords. After all, few jazz tunes require the use of “cowboy chords” so why sweeten for them and ruin everything else?

We all know that, after being in this forum for a while!

Good first post. Sounds like you really know something about guitars.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Nextguitar

Electronic tuners tune to equal temperament. The guitar’s frets are located for equal temperament. In equal temperament, the fifth of a chord will not quite match the third harmonic of the root, creating a beat frequency which will make every chord seem slightly out of tune. When you “sweeten” the tuning for playing in a particular key, you are adjusting those fifth intervals to remove the beat. But it’s only possible to sweeten a couple of chords at a time, and doing so makes other chords worse.
For tunes with few chords (e.g., folk), sweetening for a key can sound great. But if a tune has a lot of chords or modulations sweetening can make a mess of things.
For playing complex tunes I generally try to tune as close to equal temperament as possible, and resist temptation to sweeten the fifths of certain chords. And for jazz, few tunes require the use of “cowboy chords” so why sweeten for them and ruin everything else?

I think I depends on the approach and the guitar. As I mentioned in an earlier reply, it's not only the fundamental that reacts but overtones and resultant harmonics, making some guitars accept sweetened tuning better than others. And it's not just adjusting 5ths, but spreading the pitch to account for string deflection and other psycho-acoustic phenomena. And while James Taylor's approach flattens every string, the concept of pitch spreading is the main idea, not entirely dissimilar to the approach of Steinway certified piano tuners who sharpen the higher notes, even though a piano is an equal temperament fixed-pitch instrument.

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

I think I depends on the approach and the guitar. As I mentioned in an earlier reply, it's not only the fundamental that reacts but overtones and resultant harmonics, making some guitars accept sweetened tuning better than others. And it's not just adjusting 5ths, but spreading the pitch to account for string deflection and other psycho-acoustic phenomena. And while James Taylor's approach flattens every string, the concept of pitch spreading is the main idea, not entirely dissimilar to the approach of Steinway certified piano tuners who sharpen the higher notes, even though a piano is an equal temperament fixed-pitch instrument.

Yeah, we all know that too, but, I had forgotten. Thanks for the reminder!

[agfsteve]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

They should make a tuner that can be set by the user to show "in tune" (go green, needle in the middle, whatever) at a chosen pitch for each string. Basically, after you've done your sweetening, you then set the tuner to remember the tuning, post-sweetening, and from then on it tunes to that instead of what it thinks is perfect tuning.

You could then buy a separate tuner for each guitar and set each tuner to each individual guitar's needs.

Originally Posted by mattbn73

My free tuner app on my phone already does this. G strings for android. I'm sure others have it as well.

Originally Posted by Stomp

All Peterson tuners do this.

Disclosure below

Does anyone know if a tuner like this (like the one I described originally) exists as a clip-on tuner?

[JayBee1404]

The Peterson Strobo-Clip? (The clue's in the name).

https://www.petersontuners.com/products/stroboClipHD/

[5th Element]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

They should make a tuner that can be set by the user to show "in tune" (go green, needle in the middle, whatever) at a chosen pitch for each string. Basically, after you've done your sweetening, you then set the tuner to remember the tuning, post-sweetening, and from then on it tunes to that instead of what it thinks is perfect tuning.

Originally Posted by Stomp

All Peterson tuners do this.

How does one make a Stobotune HD do this? I see how to program a custom tuning, but not how to take any particular arbitrary tuning and directly turn it into a preset. Is there a way to see the offsets from equal temperament when tuning in order to accomplish the programming manually? Lack of offset (in cents) seems to be a deficit of tuners that only provide strobe tuning, unless I'm missing something.

That said, I've recently acquired a Stobotune HD and think it works quite well. Perhaps there could be more pre-fab sweetened tunings for acoustic, although there is a library of user-contributed sweetengs that I haven't investigated deeply. [There are 50 stock sweetenings, and only about four that might be of significant interest to acoustic guitarists — acoustic (standard tuning), DADGAD, and Dobro (2 ea.).]

[Stomp]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

Does anyone know if a tuner like this (like the one I described originally) exists as a clip-on tuner?

The Peterson StroboClip HD is the only clip-on tuner which allows you to program your own pitch offsets, it comes with over 50 pre-programmed Sweeteners.

[Stomp]

Hi 5th Element,

I think I posted at the same time as your question, I'll try to answer

Originally Posted by 5th Element

How does one make a Stobotune HD do this? I see how to program a custom tuning, but not how to take any particular arbitrary tuning and directly turn it into a preset. Is there a way to see the offsets from equal temperament when tuning in order to accomplish the programming manually? Lack of offset (in cents) seems to be a deficit of tuners that only provide strobe tuning, unless I'm missing something.

A live cent display in a tuner with 0.1 cent accuracy and as small as a clip-on would result in a tiny line of rapidly scrolling numbers which can be difficult to see, never mind interpret. Measuring/defining the offsets of a given tuning is really a job for a benchtop tuner like the StroboPLUS HD where the cent offset is adjustable and can be matched to the incoming signal. Alternatively, you could use our app to get the offsets.

There is, however, a workaround if you have to work it out on the StroboClip HD alone.
Set the tuner to EQU (Equal temperament)
1) Tune one string to the tuner
2) Tune the rest by ear
3) Then play each ear-tuned string while using the Concert pitch control to immobilize the display, the concert pitch control is adjustable in 0.1 Hz increments.
4) Note the number for each of the five remaining strings
5) Use the converter on our site to change the Hz into cents
6) Program your custom Sweetener

Originally Posted by 5th Element

That said, I've recently acquired a Stobotune HD and think it works quite well. Perhaps there could be more pre-fab sweetened tunings for acoustic, although there is a library of user-contributed sweetengs that I haven't investigated deeply. [There are 50 stock sweetenings, and only about four that might be of significant interest to acoustic guitarists — acoustic (standard tuning), DADGAD, and Dobro (2 ea.).]

There are quite a few more in the library and you can decide to share your own with other users if you like.
For those that are temperament savvy, you can get a lot of use out of presets like JMI and JME by using the transposition/root control.

[5th Element]

Originally Posted by Stomp

3) Then play each ear-tuned string while using the Concert pitch control to immobilize the display, the concert pitch control is adjustable in 0.1 Hz increments.

@Stomp, thanks for your detailed reply. Where can I learn more about the Concert pitch control? This is the first I've heard of it. I have no idea where it is or how to turn it on.

[Stomp]

Originally Posted by 5th Element

@Stomp, thanks for your detailed reply. Where can I learn more about the Concert pitch control? This is the first I've heard of it. I have no idea where it is or how to turn it on.

Hi 5th Element,

Press the menu button to switch the tuner on, then press the menu button three times to toggle through to Concert A, you'll see "440" begin to flash.
Use the + and - buttons to increment or decrement the value.

To change to finer increments of 0.1 Hz, simultaneously press the menu button and the + (plus) button briefly, to revert, press the menu button and the - (minus) button.

When finished, adjust the value back to 440.0