Notes or Tab?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Most beginners learn chords first.

That's right, but classical students don't. My adult students learn chords early on, but not in the first lesson.

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Most beginners need to learn left and right hand coordination, and fluidity. Most beginners will begin with the basics, so learning to read standard notation is not a disadvantage.

I agree! When I teach classical technique, I certainly don't use tab. I find kids (age 7 and upwards) learn notation easily enough.

I use tab and notation combined for my adult beginners who mostly want to strum chords and learn rock, folk or blues. Tab (for melodies, riffs and scales) is a logical companion to chord boxes, in that both show you where to put your fingers, without giving any musical information. Naturally, I like to provide additional musical information - notation with tab, and note names and chord tones on chord diagrams. Even if students don't get it to begin with, it's useful when theory questions arise (eg about why certain chords go together).

Originally Posted by vindibona1

It takes just as long for a brand new player to learn tab as to learn standard notation if instructed properly. And while some folks can become decent guitar players without learning to read any music, it is always better to have proper coaching.

Naturally, as a teacher myself, I agree! I just don't push notation on my adult students. I give it to them, and explain it (and its advantages), but leave it to them to learn if and when they appreciate its usefulness. In the meantime, they have the tab and the chords.
Of course, they are all recreational players. If I was teaching someone with ambitions to go pro, I would certainly encourage the learning of notation.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by JonPR

That's right, but classical students don't. My adult students learn chords early on, but not in the first lesson.
I agree! When I teach classical technique, I certainly don't use tab. I find kids (age 7 and upwards) learn notation easily enough.

I use tab and notation combined for my adult beginners who mostly want to strum chords and learn rock, folk or blues. Tab (for melodies, riffs and scales) is a logical companion to chord boxes, in that both show you where to put your fingers, without giving any musical information. Naturally, I like to provide additional musical information - notation with tab, and note names and chord tones on chord diagrams. Even if students don't get it to begin with, it's useful when theory questions arise (eg about why certain chords go together).
Naturally, as a teacher myself, I agree! I just don't push notation on my adult students. I give it to them, and explain it (and its advantages), but leave it to them to learn if and when they appreciate its usefulness. In the meantime, they have the tab and the chords.
Of course, they are all recreational players. If I was teaching someone with ambitions to go pro, I would certainly encourage the learning of notation.

How do you help adults make the leap between knowing the notes on a staff and putting their fingers on the guitar? In learning to sight read for guitar, it's easy enough to map the notes to one position on the fretboard, but mapping one dot to several positions seems particularly challenging to me.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by JonPR

That's right, but classical students don't. My adult students learn chords early on, but not in the first lesson.

Every teacher will have a different approach. And I suppose what one chooses for his students will often depend on the teacher's personal experiences as a learner.

My first guitar lessons were folk style, which chords, picking and strumming. I think that beginning served me very well as it provided a sound foundation for fluidity and left/right hand coordination. In retrospect, one of the benefits I got learning this first was that in just two weeks I was able to strum chords and sing to my favorite folks songs. Finger picking was just a few weeks later. After a year or so my parents put me in jazz guitar lessons where I really had to learn to read. I'm not a jazzer and can't improvize well to save my life. But when I was 16 I was thrown into a musical, playing the guitar part playing out of the actual chart- West Side Story (lead actor- Mandy Patinkin). Yeah, I was over my head and wouldn't have been able to sight read that in a million years. But I could read well enough to pick it apart and learn it. [How do you get a guitar player to turn down the amp?...]

IMO FLUIDITY is the key to playing. If you ever see someone that learned to play off of Rocksmith they almost universally lack fluidity and musicality. So learning to change chords straight away is (IMO) the easiest way to build initial fluidity, hand strength while not usually teaching solo guitar gives a sense of playing an actual accompaniment.

Music notation is the key to understanding what you are playing. So I guess it boils down to how much one wants to understand what he's doing as opposed to just being trained to do it, with limited understanding of the music itself.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Music notation is the key to understanding what you are playing. So I guess it boils down to how much one wants to understand what he's doing as opposed to just being trained to do it, with limited understanding of the music itself.

I agree that notation is best at understanding the music and that’s why I tend to rely on it most often.
That said, not all TAB is the same, and some of it can get as detailed as notation, if done right. As an example, I’m thinking of the TAB system developed by John Stropes to unlock the music of Michael Hedges to better explain its intricacies.
Also, since most of that music is in alternate runings, some of it quite exotic, TAB is arguably the most convenient and comprehensive way to learn this kind of music on paper. Certainly more efficient, unless you can navigate standard notation in unusual alternate tunings, which isn’t likely for most people.
So, I guess what I’m saying is that, as guitarists, both TAB and notation have their rightful place on our music stands!

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by AndreF

I agree that notation is best at understanding the music and that’s why I tend to rely on it most often.
That said, not all TAB is the same, and some of it can get as detailed as notation, if done right. As an example, I’m thinking of the TAB system developed by John Stropes to unlock the music of Michael Hedges to better explain its intricacies.
Also, since most of that music is in alternate runings, some of it quite exotic, TAB is arguably the most convenient and comprehensive way to learn this kind of music on paper. Certainly more efficient, unless you can navigate standard notation in unusual alternate tunings, which isn’t likely for most people.
So, I guess what I’m saying is that, as guitarists, both TAB and notation have their rightful place on our music stands!

Hi Andre,
I tried to explain this very thing to Stephen Rekas, who used to work for Mel Bay. My 'Crossing Crystal Lake' was published in one of their Fingerstyle Anthology books.

Not only is it in open D, but then It's capo 2 (so open E) but the song is played in the key of B.....hence the open tuned chord is the IV chord of the song......but I digress....

I tried to tell him that he was wasting his time doing the standard notation for the song unless a pianist was going to play it.

I think he finally got the point, but it took a few emails & phone calls!

Best regards,
Howard Emerson
http://howardemerson.com

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Hi Andre,
I tried to explain this very thing to Stephen Rekas, who used to work for Mel Bay. My 'Crossing Crystal Lake' was published in one of their Fingerstyle Anthology books.

Not only is it in open D, but then It's capo 2 (so open E) but the song is played in the key of B.....hence the open tuned chord is the IV chord of the song.....[/url]

In an earlier reply I did stipulate that alternate tunings present a larger challenge for standard notation. Not that it wouldn't work, but simply isn't practical as the training required to relearn note placement would be a general nightmare for most as all the note relationships change. In simple DADGAD for example 4th string is G and 5th string is only a minor 2nd away (A) which is completely foreign when trained mostly in standard tuning.

And if we think about alternate tunings in practical form, they are going to be used primarily for solo work. Once you add other instruments for accompaniment at some point you're going to have to return to standard notation as alternate tunings relying on tab often are thought of in terms of finger positions rather than as actual "notes" as musicians tend to think of them.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

How do you help adults make the leap between knowing the notes on a staff and putting their fingers on the guitar? In learning to sight read for guitar, it's easy enough to map the notes to one position on the fretboard, but mapping one dot to several positions seems particularly challenging to me.

As you say it's easy enough in one position, so that's how it starts: open position first. Frets 0-3 contain 2/3 of the guitar's entire range, so there's plenty you can do there . This is how classical guitar is taught (I use existing publications for classical teaching).

With the kids, there is a hurdle to be crossed when position playing comes in. It starts with 2nd position and D major scale (where 1st fret is not required). Easy enough to remember that "position = index finger fret", but you still need to learn note-fret places. This is when I start seeing kids scratching their heads: they get it in the end, but they tend to slow down at this point.

With adults, I also teach C major scale in open position, using both notation and tab. This is in the first beginner lesson - using simple familiar tunes in C, before we tackle chords, mainly to get them used to the actions of fretting and picking, and start to develop flexibility. (This is a lot more advanced than beginner classical lessons, which start with simply picking open strings: training right hand technique first. RH technique is less critical for pop/rock/folk/etc styles.)
I move on to chords after that (still in open position), and it takes a while for the issue of different positions for one note to arise. My beginner course only lasts a term (10 weeks, 15 hours), so we don't get out of open position in that time (unless you count F and Bm in barre shapes, which few will have mastered by the end).

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Hi Andre,
I tried to explain this very thing to Stephen Rekas, who used to work for Mel Bay. My 'Crossing Crystal Lake' was published in one of their Fingerstyle Anthology books.

Not only is it in open D, but then It's capo 2 (so open E) but the song is played in the key of B.....hence the open tuned chord is the IV chord of the song......but I digress....

I tried to tell him that he was wasting his time doing the standard notation for the song unless a pianist was going to play it.

Does the tab show rhythms?

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Hi Andre,
I tried to explain this very thing to Stephen Rekas, who used to work for Mel Bay. My 'Crossing Crystal Lake' was published in one of their Fingerstyle Anthology books.

Not only is it in open D, but then It's capo 2 (so open E) but the song is played in the key of B.....hence the open tuned chord is the IV chord of the song......but I digress....

I tried to tell him that he was wasting his time doing the standard notation for the song unless a pianist was going to play it.

I think he finally got the point, but it took a few emails & phone calls!

Best regards,
Howard Emerson
http://howardemerson.com

Hi Howard,
I'm glad you did finally get your point across! I have that very book, and I got it just to learn that wonderful tune of yours. Had it not been for the TAB, I never would have attempted it, given its capoed open D tuning as you note.
Another comment I'd like to make concerning these TAB vs. standard notation discussions:
I wish people would dispel the notion that TAB is some kind of "Standard Notation for Dummies", or refrain from inferring that the ability to read standard notation has any direct connection to how well a person can play or how good a musician a person is. Not that anyone in this thread has promoted this view. But there always seems to be that "scent in the air" whenever these discussions arise, and it can stir the conversation away from the essence of the subject matter, namely, that both Tablature and Standard Notation are just tools to use to make music. Some do one or the other, some do both, some do none. Guitarists are lucky in the sense that they can be accomplished, no matter the variation. It's what you sound like that really counts, not how well you can read. (Although I do acknowledge that in ensemble or group work, reading becomes more of a factor.)

[HHP]

I can say this. I have never played a tune for someone and had them ask me if I learned it via notation, TAB, or ear.

[Pitar]

First, my ear. I'm very fond of expressing what I hear over what I read and so far it has not let me down. If I was to resolve myself to reading, it would be the score. I have no use for tablature, having developed my ear well before it came onto the scene (or the internet for that matter). I can read and "hear" the music on the page I'm reading even without having heard it before. I can't think of a reason for applying that skill because I'm not an entertainer. Nor will I play something I've not heard before just for grins, or go to a store like Music & Arts where tons of scores are available to peruse for something new. I'd rather compose before doing that.

[rick-slo]

The title of the thread should have been "Notes or Tab or Both? The combo can be very nice - like figuring out a tune just from the sound of a recording versus a close up video of the tune being played.

[Hasbro]

Originally Posted by sirwhale

For me, the Notation + Tab that John PR and his friends made for my Bert Jansch Song Book, is absolutely perfect. I am not a musician, but a science teacher, who has been playing (with the free time I have) for just 3.5 years. I'm busy and have other hobbies.

I want to play Bert Jansch songs. I find them complicated, which is one thing I love about them. I can read the notation to an extent to understand note length and I use the tab to access the fingering quickly. I can learn the songs quickly and I am happy.

Surely notation is better for those who are able; tab is better for those who know less and maybe somewhere in the middle for intermediates.

Where can i find this johnpr book on jansch?

[Guitar Slim II]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think they're both good for things. Tab is guitar-centric language--which means it's great for getting things like exact fingerings.

Musical notation is a true communication system across instruments. It's also far more intuitive to "sight read" notation.

Both have value. If I could have only one, it'd be notation.

Let's clarify: TAB is great for determining POSITIONS. It provides no fingering information. In classical guitar anyway, a well-edited performance edition provides WAY more details about fingerings -- and just as much info about position as well. FYI.

Not an anti-TAB sentiment. Just an observation.

[stanron]

I'm agreeing with all those who say the simple answer is both. Tab allows the opportunity to pass guitar ideas to as wide a number of people as possible. Little or no previous knowledge is required. Notation is a super fast way of getting musical ideas on paper.

For a long time I used tab only. Now, except when posting to a forum such as this, notation is usually my first port of call. I'm currently developing an instrumental of a folk tune called The Little Flower In The Forest, and just before posting this I was thinking of writing it down. I'll do this using Musescore and the first draught will be in notation. Only after the notation is complete will I copy and paste it into the Tab staff and edit it. This is much simpler and faster than doing the tab first.

If I have a musical idea I want to write down it goes into notation first. Once you are used to notation you can actually see the melody on the stave.

I do get the reason to use tab for alternate tunings. I don't use alternate tunings any more so I don't know whether I'd go into notation first.

Just to confuse the issue a bit more, there is also ABC. This is a very useful way of coding melodies into a simple text form. There is an enormous amount of material, especially folk material out there in ABC. It is not something most people will read directly to play music but there's lots of software available for converting ABC to notation and for playing the file. Little of it is specifically guitar music but it is a musical resource.