2 x 12

[K Trespass]

Very interesting. Great insight Nigel. Very much agree that mastergrade (or whatever the label) does not always = tone.

[JoeCharter]

I can only presume that these two guitars have great tone since they were built by two reputable builders.

If I were to spend serious money on a guitar, I would want my guitar to be like the two featured in this thread, i.e. great sound, great looks, no TTT.

As evidenced by this thread, great looking tops that sound good do exist. For the price of a Kostal or a Sobell, why settle for less.

The sound vs. looks debate is a faux dilemma when it comes to high end guitars.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

I can only presume that these two guitars have great tone since they were built by two reputable builders.

If I were to spend serious money on a guitar, I would want my guitar to be like the two featured in this thread, i.e. great sound, great looks, no TTT.

As evidenced by this thread, great looking tops that sound good do exist. For the price of a Kostal or a Sobell, why settle for less.

The sound vs. looks debate is a faux dilemma when it comes to high end guitars.

That presumes such a thing matters to the buyer.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by stringjunky2

That presumes such a thing matters to the buyer.

Of course, that goes without saying. I did post using first person singular, didn't I?

That being said, I'm far from being the only one who prefers one tone tops. I know for a fact that many people asked their builders for one tone tops as a result of reading the forum. If these discussions can help some of us, I'm all for it.

Luthiers who claim that customers should accept two tone tops if they want the best sounding guitar simply need to find better wood -- as evidenced by the two beauties in this thread.

But if you really want to discuss tone, I find this obsession with tone a bit ironic since 99% of people who buy expensive custom guitars are casual players who will never coax the best tones out of their instruments anyway. It takes years and years of dedicated practice to get halfway there -- and I just don't hear much of it in this community.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

Of course, that goes without saying. I did post using first person singular, didn't I?

That being said, I'm far from being the only one who prefers one tone tops. I know for a fact that many people asked their builders for one tone tops as a result of reading the forum. If these discussions can help some of us, I'm all for it.

Luthiers who claim that customers should accept two tone tops if they want the best sounding guitar simply need to find better wood -- as evidenced by the two beauties in this thread.

But if you really want to discuss tone, I find this obsession with tone a bit ironic since 99% of people who buy expensive custom guitars are casual players who will never coax the best tones out of their instruments anyway. It takes years and years of dedicated practice to get halfway there -- and I just don't hear much of it in this community.

The luthier will give you what you want: a top with no runout. You won't know any different if you got the best sounding top they could offer but you'll be happy because you got a top with no runout.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by stringjunky2

The luthier will give you what you want: a top with no runout. You won't know any different if you got the best sounding top they could offer but you'll be happy because you got a top with no runout.

What you are saying would apply to everyone -- TTT or not -- since none of us would have ever heard our guitar with a different top.

Besides I actually don't believe in the concept of a "best sounding top." Some tops are better than others obviously but among a bunch of excellent tops you'd be hard pressed to find the one that would universally result in the "best sounding guitar." Depends on what you want to hear and how you play the instrument.

Some folks don't mind if their guitars have a TTT and I'm most definitely not questioning their preferences. Again all I'm saying is that the often repeated idea that one must choose between a good sounding top or a good looking one is not a real dilemma if you have the time and resources to find the best tops.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by K Trespass

Again, on the money, Cigarfan. 12 fret 12 string in quilted sapele and Jason’s usual spruce top. Just arrived so 2017. Initial impressions are pretty immense. Great balance, clarity and warmth.

Greg

I believe that this may have been Jason's first 12-string.

[Codfather]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

Of course, that goes without saying. I did post using first person singular, didn't I?

That being said, I'm far from being the only one who prefers one tone tops. I know for a fact that many people asked their builders for one tone tops as a result of reading the forum. If these discussions can help some of us, I'm all for it.

Luthiers who claim that customers should accept two tone tops if they want the best sounding guitar simply need to find better wood -- as evidenced by the two beauties in this thread.

But if you really want to discuss tone, I find this obsession with tone a bit ironic since 99% of people who buy expensive custom guitars are casual players who will never coax the best tones out of their instruments anyway. It takes years and years of dedicated practice to get halfway there -- and I just don't hear much of it in this community.

Bravo !well said
I gotta agree with the last part

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by K Trespass

Thought these might be of interest.....

[IMG][/IMG]

Greg, can you turn them around so we can see the other side please? Any sound samples? Video? I'd like to hear them. Not heard a Sobell 12 string for years. They were great. Stefan's archtops are brilliant.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

[K Trespass]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

I can only presume that these two guitars have great tone since they were built by two reputable builders.

If I were to spend serious money on a guitar, I would want my guitar to be like the two featured in this thread, i.e. great sound, great looks, no TTT.

As evidenced by this thread, great looking tops that sound good do exist. For the price of a Kostal or a Sobell, why settle for less.

The sound vs. looks debate is a faux dilemma when it comes to high end guitars.

Agree that in this bracket, great sounding and great looking guitars should be achievable (plus great ergonomically). Only point I was trying to make was that if you start with grade (which as I understand it is not related to tone), rather than anticipated tone, you might miss something special. I am led to believe, but Nigel will no doubt know better, that Stefan (no doubt in common with some of the other names which feature frequently on these pages), is particularly adept at identifying the woods which are most likely, when all the other ingredients are put together (particularly the craft of the luthier and the skill of the player), to produce amazing tone.

Know this debate has been round the houses so not trying to start it up again. good piece here though from this very forum http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=225649

[K Trespass]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

Of course, that goes without saying. I did post using first person singular, didn't I?

That being said, I'm far from being the only one who prefers one tone tops. I know for a fact that many people asked their builders for one tone tops as a result of reading the forum. If these discussions can help some of us, I'm all for it.

Luthiers who claim that customers should accept two tone tops if they want the best sounding guitar simply need to find better wood -- as evidenced by the two beauties in this thread.

But if you really want to discuss tone, I find this obsession with tone a bit ironic since 99% of people who buy expensive custom guitars are casual players who will never coax the best tones out of their instruments anyway. It takes years and years of dedicated practice to get halfway there -- and I just don't hear much of it in this community.

Originally Posted by Codfather

Bravo !well said
I gotta agree with the last part

Ouch (I think?)!! More seriously, although the point is understood and speaking for myself only, privilege of being in a position to own a few of these guitars doesn’t necessarily correlate either to not putting years of practice in (albeit that a good part of those years were not on the kostals of this world) or being able to coax a good tone out. That is not to say that there aren’t infinitely better players.

[K Trespass]

Originally Posted by N K Forster

Greg, can you turn them around so we can see the other side please? Any sound samples? Video? I'd like to hear them. Not heard a Sobell 12 string for years. They were great. Stefan's archtops are brilliant.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

Will do when I clear the builders out....

When you are back in the UK feel free to let me know if you wanted to play the Sobell.

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by K Trespass

Will do when I clear the builders out....

When you are back in the UK feel free to let me know if you wanted to play the Sobell.

Whereabouts are you Greg?

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

[justonwo]

I thought this thread was going to be about a speaker cabinet.

[N K Forster]

PM sent Greg.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com