Laminate vs Carved Solid top?

[tdq]

I have an interest in entering the archtop world but don't know much about them, although I've been playing guitar for many years. After a bit of research, I probably will go an entry level Loar (I'm interested in acoustic only).
I was in a store today that had a LH-300 and a LH-700. The LH-300 has a laminated top, the LH-700 a carved top. They sounded and felt pretty similar to me, to be honest - maybe the 700 slightly better but it was almost $1K more. I asked the sales guy and he said the carved top will improve with age whereas the laminate top would pretty much remain the same. I have read that the solid/laminate thing is not as much an issue for archtops than it is for flatops. Thoughts?

[Spook]

It does matter. You may not hear much difference because of the way the music store has them set up. Somehow I doubt they have something .012 acoustic guitar strings (phosphor bronze 80/20's for instance) running on the Loar 700. I don't have one but some pretty experience players here like the solid wood Loar quite a bit.

[alikag]

I have read that laminate works well if the guitar has a pickup as there is less potential for feedback. Carved tops generally sound better, but it's not essential. The price difference may or may not be worth depending on your intentions.

[Apprentice]

Originally Posted by tdq

I asked the sales guy and he said the carved top will improve with age whereas the laminate top would pretty much remain the same. I have read that the solid/laminate thing is not as much an issue for archtops than it is for flatops. Thoughts?

I think what the sales guy told you has its merits, but it's more applicable & obvious for acoustic guitars imo. If you're not gonna install a pickup or mic the guitar, I'd go for the solid top as it should produce more volume. On the other hand, this means that the solid top tends to generate more feedback than the laminate one. So my suggestion is, if you play mostly plugged = go for the laminated top. If you play mostly unplugged = solid top.

[pbla4024]

I was under impression that both LH 300 and LH 700 (and LH 600 as well) have got solid tops. Difference is in back and sides.

[rpguitar]

Apply the same logic to carved vs. laminated archtops as you would to solid vs. laminated flat tops. It's really no different.

Carved/solid = more labor, more expensive, louder, brighter, more nuanced tone, refines with age, more susceptible to feedback, more sensitive to humidity changes

Laminated = less expensive, quieter, darker, simpler tone, changes less with age, less susceptible to feedback, less sensitive to humidity changes

[zabdart]

Orville Gibson began carving an arch into the tops and backs of his guitars and mandolins in the 19th century in order to apply principles of violin-making to the building of guitars and mandolins. His theory was that doing so would improve both the volume and tone of his instruments. This process was completed by Gibson VP Lloyd Loar in the 1920's with his designs for the L-5 guitar and F-5 mandolin, which are still some of the most sought-after acoustic instruments on the planet.
A guitar with a solid top, whether archtop or flattop, will improve its sound with age and playing. The more you play it, the better it will sound. The top of an acoustic guitar is your soundboard. Its job is to transfer string vibration to the top, thereby exciting the air inside the box. What you hear is the vibrating air coming out of the box through the soundhole. A solid top does a more efficient job of this than a laminated top.
Gibson started building laminated top archtops at the end of World War II. Their experience was that once you mounted a magnetic pickup on the top of an acoustic guitar, the pickup was prone to pick up sympathetic vibration from the guitar's top and start ascending feedback loops, an unwanted feature at the time. To correct this, they started building electric guitars with laminated tops, which were stiffer, like the ES-175 to cut down on the top's vibration.
Hope this helps.

[tdq]

Originally Posted by pbla4024

I was under impression that both LH 300 and LH 700 (and LH 600 as well) have got solid tops. Difference is in back and sides.

You're right, I had it wrong, so this discussion is moot, at least on the guitar tops! Still, lots of great information and things to think about, so thanks everyone.

For the record, the LH-300, LH-600, and LH-700 all have carved tops. The 300 has laminate back, the 600 and 700 carved back, the 700 having "AAA" wood.
So...would the previous comments apply to the back when it comes to sound and aging? I'm assuming yes, but to a lesser extent.

[mr. beaumont]

The finish is also different, I believe--nitro on the 600 and 700, poly on the 300. Is the fretboard ebony or rosewood on the 300?

If you do a little hunting, you can find 600's for well under a grand...that's the deal in the Loar line if you ask me...

I have not come across a 300 series to try out...

When it comes to archtops, the top is the most important thing, but the back and sides can make a difference as well, depending on their thickness/weight.

Generally, laminated top archtops are used as electric guitars, while solid topped can be either or. For the most part, anything with a set in pickup is meant to be an electric guitar first and foremost. Often, you'll see solid archties with a floating pickup--this gives a different plugged in sound (much brighter) and also doesn't compromise the acoustic tone of the instrument.

Laminate is not a dirty word in the archtop community--when it comes to guitars that are meant to be plugged in (some would even say for that purpose, laminate guitars are superior.) When it comes to acoustic archtop one and rhythm playing, a solid wood instrument is more desirable.

[bohemian]

Left out of the tops.... solid "pressed" tops as were used on some of the Epiphone Elitist guitars such as my Byrdland also the Broadway and by other makers.

[louparte]

I think Asian manufacturers will mostly have solid carved tops on their archtops.
Oddly enough, some prestige US makers are using lam tops.

Laminate will make that part of the instrument noticeably heavier. I know that much.
But done right, laminates can sound as good or better than any comparable solid top.

[KevinLPederson]

Its interesting how opinions vary. Just reading this thread, there doesn't seem to be a consensus. The subjectivity of each persons ear/situation prejudices their opinion.

A laminate top will be "tighter" = higher in fundamental pitch. Probably be a brighter sound, more "high end". Its possible that it can be very tight to the point of sounding dark...these seem contradictory...but there is so much variable. Maybe one guy used wood glue and the next used epoxy etc (variables). Maybe the "darker toned" laminate top actually is "tighter", does have a higher fundamental but is left thicker by the maker (causing less sustain and a "darker feel"...so many variables.

The solid wood top will most likely be a little "looser", and possibly have a lower fundamental pitch...so it will seem warmer in tone and produce a "woodier" feel. Most likely tones you've grown to like and appeal more to you. This is the organic guitar in the store your hearing the organic tone right then and there in your lap. As opposed to recorded, compressed, through speakers in your home/car.

And the next guy will say the exact opposite of what I've just said above.

The variables overlap and this is how most people color the subjectivity.

Find what works best for you and enjoy it. Get one of each.

Just an opinion.

Kevin.

[bohemian]

Case by case.

[iim7V7IM7]

It all matters...

- body size
- body depth
- x-brace or parallel brace
- solid or laminate top
- top tuning (carve and brace)
- back and side woods
- bridge wood/design
- tail piece design
- scale length
- string type/gage
- the player

[rpguitar]

All cars are fast. They all go 100 MPH if you are able to find somewhere to drive them that fast. So why bother having any discussions about their different mechanical designs, the generalities of different makes, or the manufacturing practices of their countries of origin?

Ferraris are more distinguished and refined than Hondas, as a general rule. And carved archtops are better acoustic instruments than laminated ones, also as a general rule.