Need help with flex time in Logic

[wcap]

So, my wife and daughter and I did a bit of recording in our living room today, and I spent a few hours working on mixing (wow, this is time consuming, especially when you only sort of know what you are doing).

We did 4 takes of one of our pieces, and I have a preliminary mix:



There are a variety of problems, and we are probably going to rerecord the violin part (though this was a live recording with all of us performing at once, we are getting very good separation between tracks which makes re-recording tracks and substituting them in a possibility), but the biggest thing bothering me at this point is some timing issues.

First, one of the voices comes in just slightly too late at the beginning. I think I know how to fix this using the flex time feature in Logic (actually, we have Logic Express).

But the thing I don't know how to fix, and one of the things that bothers me the most about this recording, is that at about 1:38 - 1:43 or so we all slow down for a few measures.

Is this easily adjusted using the flex time feature?

My impression is that flex time will move notes, and shorten and lengthen segments, but, as I understand it, the total length of the music always stays the same.

What I would like to do, for all 5 tracks simultaneously, is compress those several measures just a bit to speed them up slightly, dragging everything following those measures forward a tiny bit (which would have the result of shortening the whole recording sightly).

Can this be done?


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Incidentally... yes, I realize the thing to do here is to just do a few more takes and work out the bugs (4 takes is hardly anything in the grand scheme of things, though patience sometimes is limited in these sorts of family recording sessions...), and this take was not my daughter's favorite from the standpoint of her singing anyway. Also, I'm hearing some background hiss - we had our house furnace fan running I realize and we should have turned that off (and I think I made some stupid mixing decisions that affected sound quality, though those would be fixable without re-recording).

But this sort of time adjustment is something I've wanted to do in the past on other recordings too at times, so I'd like to try to figure this out.
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Thanks.

[muscmp]

it is much easier to do it again and get it right.
however, you could click on the flex icon at the top to turn it on.
then click on your track, or tracks, and click on the flex for that(those) tracks. then you would most likely pick rhythm and not pitch, etc. let the computer do its thing and then see how much it helped.

you may also want to try clicking on the follow tempo box in the inspector for that or those tracks to see how it helps. you may even want to do this first.

note that the logic help menu is actually very good. you may also want to check apple discussions logic at this link:

https://discussions.apple.com/commun...ions/logic_pro

as well as logic pro help at this link:

http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/vi...d09d936606d424

i do not know what is different with logic express so if you join these fora, you may want to make sure you let them know when you post any questions.

play music!

[wcap]

Thanks.

I think I didn't ask my question very well. It seems that when one makes flex time adjustments they affect more than just the segment you are concerned about. For example, if you shorten something, it seems that something else gets lengthened. This makes sense in some situations.

But what I am wanting to do is shorten a segment (to speed it up) but not change anything about the rest of the track(s) before or after the segment. And I want the end result to all flow smoothly of course.

It seems that one way to do this is to copy (or cut) the section of concern, paste it into a new separate track, shorten it, paste it back in where it came from, and nudge the downstream bit of that track a bit to the left to join things up again. This is more cumbersome, but it seems to work.

I'd be interested in knowing whether there is a simpler way of doing this though.

I can see though that flex time adjustments have the potential of creating strange sound quality issues, depending on how they are done.

Originally Posted by muscmp

it is much easier to do it again and get it right.

Well, yes, in a lot of cases. And indeed, I'd like to have us do more takes, but there are tradeoffs, and the result can be compromises. If all one needs to do is a few small adjustments in Logic I think this can be easier in some cases than the challenge of assembling everyone together again, setting up all the microphones and music stands and such again, etc.

As it turns out, with this piece, I think I'm going to end up using a different take anyway, a take where my daughter thought she sang better. This take will have other issues of course. For example, I know I had a couple of guitar flub ups in that take, but I think I'll be able to fix those easily.

[KevWind]

Boy I wish I used Logic so I could be sure it is the same as Pro Tools.

In Pro Tools and I would think in Logic as well, you can in fact separate a specific section by dragging over it with the curser which highlights it, then hit the cut command, or separate region/clip command, which gives you that section as an individual clip or region. Then highlight and perform the time adjustment function which does it for only that section. As I said I do not know if this is possible in logic but it seems like it should be.

[wcap]

Kev,

Thanks.

Though I've had Logic Express for some years now, it took me a long time to actually climb what initially seemed like a very steep learning curve to do even the simplest of things. My daughter finally took it on though, figured out some basics, and got me started. I'm now loving this program (and can't stand GarageBand anymore!).

But there is so much I don't know how to do. I need to sit down with the manual and experiment a bunch more.

I've heard people say that editing is much easier in Pro Tools, though I don't have any direct experience to be able to say if this is true. I have sometimes thought that I really should have gotten Pro Tools, but at the time it was seeming that Pro Tools only worked with certain computer interfaces (m-Audio as I recall) - I don't know if that actually was true then, but it seems it is not true now.

Logic does seem to have some pretty nifty features, such as the ability to do multiple takes and then quickly select and piece together the best parts from the different takes. Pretty cool.

[KevWind]

See if this helps. it is out of the logic manual


https://help.apple.com/logicpro/mac/...Audio.xml-SW22

[wcap]

Originally Posted by KevWind

See if this helps. it is out of the logic manual


https://help.apple.com/logicpro/mac/...Audio.xml-SW22

I had been looking at this already, but missed this:

Moving Flex Markers Without Time Stretching

You can change a flex marker’s position in an audio region without changing the timing of the audio material before or after the flex marker.
To move a flex marker without time stretching

Hold down the Option key while you drag the flex marker.

When you drag a flex marker, you can press the Option key to turn time stretching off, or release the Option key to turn time stretching on.

This is probably the solution. I'm off to try this now!

Thanks (in advance of knowing whether it works the way I want or not) for helping me to see what I was missing even though it was staring me in the face!

[wcap]

Originally Posted by wcap

I had been looking at this already, but missed this:

Moving Flex Markers Without Time Stretching

You can change a flex marker’s position in an audio region without changing the timing of the audio material before or after the flex marker.
To move a flex marker without time stretching

Hold down the Option key while you drag the flex marker.

When you drag a flex marker, you can press the Option key to turn time stretching off, or release the Option key to turn time stretching on.

This is probably the solution. I'm off to try this now!

Thanks (in advance of knowing whether it works the way I want or not) for helping me to see what I was missing even though it was staring me in the face!

Oops, no, this just is a way to move time markers without affecting timing at all. It is a useful thing to know how to do, but not what I'm after here.

Thanks though!

[wcap]

In case anyone is interested....

Here is a solution:

I used this method (from the manual):

To time stretch using region borders
Do one of the following:
Drag the left or right edge of the region header...

First I shortened (by just a slight bit) the segment I wanted to have go faster.

This had the effect of also stretching everything that followed. To fix this, I went to the very end and shortened that segment by the same amount as the first segment (and in the process shortened the whole thing by that amount). This had the effect of undoing the stretching.

This seems to have worked!

It is clear though that this can cause odd sound quality problems, and to minimize these one needs to choose the right flex time mode. I chose monophonic for most of the tracks (and rhythmic for one track) - I listened to each track alone and chose whatever setting had the least effect on the sound of that track in the compressed region.

[KevWind]

Seems like it is doable given that now days the features of most DAW are fairly close. The main difference being in the particular work flow to get it done.

I thought perhaps this was what you were after

Note: You can drag a flex marker—and thereby edit the timing of the material—immediately after you create it. This action alters the timing of the audio material between that flex marker and the preceding and following flex markers, or the region start and end positions if there are no preceding and following flex markers.

You can also create multiple flex markers in an audio region.

[muscmp]

Originally Posted by wcap

In case anyone is interested....

Here is a solution:

I used this method (from the manual):

To time stretch using region borders
Do one of the following:
Drag the left or right edge of the region header...

First I shortened (by just a slight bit) the segment I wanted to have go faster.

This had the effect of also stretching everything that followed. To fix this, I went to the very end and shortened that segment by the same amount as the first segment (and in the process shortened the whole thing by that amount). This had the effect of undoing the stretching.

This seems to have worked!

It is clear though that this can cause odd sound quality problems, and to minimize these one needs to choose the right flex time mode. I chose monophonic for most of the tracks (and rhythmic for one track) - I listened to each track alone and chose whatever setting had the least effect on the sound of that track in the compressed region.

it seems you were able to do a work around from what i'd mentioned above!
great! you may still want to check those sites i mentioned as well as youtube videos on logic and some logic tips provided by sound on sound magazine online.

play music!

[ombudsman]

I think the simplest way to do what you describe is to simply click with the flex tool to add new markers which will be the boundaries of the area you want to change.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by ombudsman

I think the simplest way to do what you describe is to simply click with the flex tool to add new markers which will be the boundaries of the area you want to change.

But it seems that if you shorten the duration of a section to speed that part up, some other portion is stretched (and thus slowed down). Or am I missing something about how to do this?

What I want to be able to do is, say, shorten a section (all tracks) without changing the timing anywhere else (which, of course, would also shorten the entire piece of music).

[ombudsman]

Originally Posted by wcap

But it seems that if you shorten the duration of a section to speed that part up, some other portion is stretched (and thus slowed down). Or am I missing something about how to do this?

What I want to be able to do is, say, shorten a section (all tracks) without changing the timing anywhere else (which, of course, would also shorten the entire piece of music).

Flex editing by itself won't change the overall length of your region (as I understand it, anyway). I think it's designed not to do that. But based on where you insert flex markers (or delete ones that were automatically inserted, if necessary) you can let it stretch an empty section. So after you set the boundary flex markers and make your flex edits in order to shorten the section you are concerned with, then you would select and delete some of the (newly expanded) dead air before or after the edited section, and then drag the rest of the recording over to close the gap left by the deleted section.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by ombudsman

Flex editing by itself won't change the overall length of your region (as I understand it, anyway). I think it's designed not to do that. But based on where you insert flex markers (or delete ones that were automatically inserted, if necessary) you can let it stretch an empty section. So after you set the boundary flex markers and make your flex edits in order to shorten the section you are concerned with, then you would select and delete some of the (newly expanded) dead air before or after the edited section, and then drag the rest of the recording over to close the gap left by the deleted section.

Thanks for this suggestion. This might really be the way to go in some situations.

I'm not sure this is a lot simpler from what I came up with though. And if you don't have dead space in all tracks at once it seems this might have more potential for creating audible breaks. With my approach nothing is actually being removed - there is still potential for creating annoying audible transitions though.

I will have to experiment with the flex tool adjustments more and try what you are suggesting. It is good to have multiple ways of approaching things up your sleeve!

My biggest concern with the flex tool though is that it is seeming there is potential for creating really odd sound quality issues.

All in all, it really is best to get a good take in the first place and to fix problems at the performance level, though the flex tool feature really is convenient for making small tweaks. For example, I was able to quicky and effectively fix a situation where my wife came in with her singing a fraction of a second after my daughter (when they were supposed to be synchronous). This was a situation, by the way, where it was important that the flex tool did not affect the total length of the one track I was manipulating.