Improvising - Fingerstyle

[mr. beaumont]

Jeez, some of t'all make it sound like rocket surgery.

[tbeltrans]

When I am playing in a band, I have to pretty much stick with what the band is doing when improvising. When by myself, I do much as a few other posters have said - I just play whatever I feel like playing and some of it works, maybe some doesn't. Doing this is a good way of experimenting. It really isn't difficult, but one does need to know some chords and not be afraid to play with sounds to hear what works and what doesn't.

Tony

[Mr. Jelly]

Not to steal the thread but .... This reminds me of when I was first learning to play guitar. Back then there wasn't anyway to learn the guitar except from a guitar teacher that would teach note reading. I couldn't do/take that. So I learned an E chord and would just bang away on that chord for hours. So I did it fast, slow and about every way imaginable. Then came the A chord and I was jamming. I was learning by improvising and didn't know it.

[MC5C]

I've studied this, and thought about it a great deal, for many years. Goes to show I am a slow learner. First off, you've never said what style of music you like to play. Fingerstyle is a way of physically playing the guitar, and it has nothing to do with improvising. The two things are different. Joe Pass plays fingerstyle and is almost the epitome of improvisational music. Listen to one of his Virtuoso albums and realize that they were pretty much totally improvised, on the spot, one take sessions. Mark Knopfler is another great fingerstyle artist, and he can improvise with the best.

What you do to learn how to improvise is learn some licks in the style in which you want to play, whatever that is. Bluegrass, learn a G-run. Blues, learn some BB King trills. Get a repertoire of licks that you can start to string together into three and four bar phrases, not in the context of trying to put them into a song or specific structure but focusing on just playing the licks. Then, when you are playing a song try sticking your lick or phrase into a verse instead of what your arrangement usually has. Once you get it to sound musical, try to extend it to an 8 bar section, and away you go. Once you can do that with your licks you will start to combine them in new ways as you go, on the fly. That is now improvising. Take the chords and structure to a song you know, and make up a completely different melody for it, then another one, then another one, and start to combine them randomly.

The key is to take it in steps, like a staircase. You know you want to get to the top, but you have to take each step to get there. Licks, scales, arpeggios, set phrases, BB King's trills and popping that octave, they are all steps. Learning 20 ways to blow over a I-VI-II-V is a step on the staircase. When you get to the top, what you find is the steps fall away, and if you play one of your licks, its become an original phrase that you created on the spot, it just happened to have the same notes as that lick you learned at the beginning.

Wow, too long.

Edit: Here is a memory that just came to me. I was in a jazz workshop, a quintet setting of drums, bass, two guitars and a horn, and we were all learning how to play jazz. We were in a pub that the teacher and his colleague booked for a Sunday night, private party, and four or five workshop groups would all play three or four tunes as their set. We were playing Parker's Ornithology, a bebop tune that we played at around a 280 quarter note tempo - stupid fast for us. I played my solo, two choruses, and on the last section I played a rising repetitive line that was based on a diminished arpeggio but rising in whole tone steps. It quickly gets out of harmony, but it resolves if you take it far enough. I did, and my teacher shouts out this loud "YEAH!". At that instant, I was really improvising and I had reached the next floor up all the steps.

[dkstott]

IMHO -- Robert Conti is certainly NOT to be recommended for someone interested in strictly fingerstyle playing. Unless that person wants to spend a substantial amount of time converting what Robert teaches with a pick into fingerstyle.

He does indeed start out with a simple progression showing the melody in every chord in the assembly line DVD. But then he makes quantum leaps to complex chords that might be wonderful to some, but I think he goes way overboard. None of which is easily translatable to fingerstyle playing.

His "Chord Melody" arrangements turn into a blur of chords and it becomes very difficult to hear the actual melody in a lot of his work.

just this person's opinion.

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

I do some of this too. I would like to suggest you look at two of Robert Conti's books for this style:

1. Chord Melody Assembly Line - with this, you will get a complete vocabulary of chord forms to harmonize ANY melody note with a given chord.
He gives you the C major scale with the # and b 5, # and b 9, b7, etc., included. He does all these melody notes with the C major chord, then the F major chord, then the A minor chord, the D minor chord, the G7 chord, then the 4 diminished chords on 3 string sets, the augmented chords on 4 string sets. He does this in such a way that it is really easy to memorize them because he does them in a systematic way that really makes sense. He applies these to a song so you learn how to rapidly create a chord melody solo with them. Then, in an appendix, he gives you several variations of many of these chord forms to refer to as you gain experience. This is not just about the key of C. These are all moveable forms, so you "count up" or "count down" to whatever key you need to be in. Quickly, you will have command of all the keys you typically play in. Conti really has a knack with this. The book comes with a DVD in which he talks you through everything in the book and provides a lot of helpful information.

2. The Formula - with this, you learn how to use what you learned in "Assembly Line" to never have to play the same song the same way twice. You learn how to create an infinite number of ways to harmonize a melody on the spot. This book comes with two DVDs, giving you all the help you might need to really understand this material and put it to use.

I hope this is helpful for you. I honestly don't know of any other learning materials that treat this material so clearly and without imposing limitations. The first book presents a "system" in a sense (not CAGED...), while the second opens the universe of harmony, building on the first book.

Tony

[dkstott]

+1 on this book... It can be tough to find.. It is out of stock more often than not on Amazon... But it's one of the few books that focus on fingerstyle.

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

I like this. Very nice description!

Somebody has to say this, so this time it will be me...

There is a book on fingerstyle improvising:

http://www.amazon.com/Improvisation-.../dp/1908341580

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by dkstott

IMHO -- Robert Conti is certainly NOT to be recommended for someone interested in strictly fingerstyle playing. Unless that person wants to spend a substantial amount of time converting what Robert teaches with a pick into fingerstyle.

He does indeed start out with a simple progression showing the melody in every chord in the assembly line DVD. But then he makes quantum leaps to complex chords that might be wonderful to some, but I think he goes way overboard. None of which is easily translatable to fingerstyle playing.

His "Chord Melody" arrangements turn into a blur of chords and it becomes very difficult to hear the actual melody in a lot of his work.

just this person's opinion.

I fully agree with what you said here about Conti not being applicable to the OP. However, you took my post out of context. I quoted ONE poster who was talking specifically about his approach for which (to me) Conti seemed a reasonable set of materials to consider. For the main thread, I said that usually somebody recommends a book, so I did. That book is about specifically fingerstyle improvising.

As for the blur of chords, the idea is that Conti leaves it to you to apply what he teaches to the style you choose to play. With fingerstyle, which is how he does it on the DVDs, you can select what parts of the chords you want to play. He says in any of his chord melody arrangement books that you should play them as you want to hear them. They don't have to be dense with a chord for every melody note, and he gives some suggestions to try. He points a way to get started so you get the idea of matching a chord to a melody note, and then you use your own creativity from there. Some folks like his approach, some don't.

In a later post, I talked briefly about my own approach, which is basically using what I already know to freely play around with the sounds I am making and this is a way of hearing what else I can do with that. This approach is very simple (i.e. not rocket science), is applicable to any style, and does not entail anything more than what we already know. It isn't a study in improvising, but does allow us to play without restriction and rules, at least for that moment in time.

Edit: I see that in a followup post, you did mention the other book I recommended. I have it, but don't use it religiously. It is quite good, but is really aimed at the intermediate player. I like his take on the CAGED system in the appendix - much broader than is typically described. I think the book is one of those print on demand, so if you order it, it will probably show up within a couple of weeks.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Here are a couple of links to fingerstyle improvisation articles and videos that don't cost anything. I have not used these, but just did a google search and these were the first items that showed up. There were many more. Remember that worn out phrase: "google is your friend".

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsb8m9aKZAI

http://www.guitarnoise.com/lessons/i...yle-guitarist/

www.acousticfingerstyle.com/soloimprov.htm


Tony

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by s0cks

…Anyone got any tips on reaching my goal? It'd be great if I could just pick it up and play something in Am (for example) and go beyond the first few frets. Maybe I just need to keep learning more material, and if I do, then I will. Just need some direction.

Hi sOcks

• Find a playing buddy who will alternate between playing chord progressions and exploring on his/her own as well (for hours at a time). That way you find more innovative ways to play chords and rhythm, and you get a chance to explore playing passages.
• Know the melody of all the songs you are playing and be able to play it in two different octaves (at least). You aren't likely to improvise out of thin air, so having the melody as your guide seems important.
• Get an app like iRealPro for your smart phone (iOS app) which will play band-in-a-box style backing accompaniment with a bunch-o-instruments in a bunch-o-different-styles for hours without complaint. You can write up your own progression charts, or download their free song charts (thousands of classics).
• Learn all the three note inversions for major and minor chords on strings 1-2-3, and 2-3-4.
• Know your scales for then keys you are playing in…
• Learn parallel 3rds and 6ths up and down the neck (some people slang-term them double stops).

This isn't a comprehensive list, just one which will put you on a path toward learning to improvise.

[dkstott]

I apologize for taking it out of context. My response was directed toward the OP's initial request for help in fingerstyle improvisation.

RE: Robert Conti, there is indeed a lot of good in his DVD's and books and he has a ton of fans.

I just got tired of trying to sift through his complex chording in the arrangements to end up with something that was more preferable to my ear & likes. Then add in my need to translate his pick work to make it work for fingerstyle.

A recommendation for the OP might be to look at the lessons by Rolly Brown in Stefan Grossmans site

#1 Nuts & Bolts Approach to Exploring Fingerstyle Jazz - Rolly Brown

#2 Owning A Jazz Standard taught by Rolly Brown

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

I fully agree with what you said here about Conti not being applicable to the OP. However, you took my post out of context. I quoted ONE poster who was talking specifically about his approach for which (to me) Conti seemed a reasonable set of materials to consider. For the main thread, I said that usually somebody recommends a book, so I did. That book is about specifically fingerstyle improvising.

As for the blur of chords, the idea is that Conti leaves it to you to apply what he teaches to the style you choose to play. With fingerstyle, which is how he does it on the DVDs, you can select what parts of the chords you want to play. He says in any of his chord melody arrangement books that you should play them as you want to hear them. They don't have to be dense with a chord for every melody note, and he gives some suggestions to try. He points a way to get started so you get the idea of matching a chord to a melody note, and then you use your own creativity from there. Some folks like his approach, some don't.

In a later post, I talked briefly about my own approach, which is basically using what I already know to freely play around with the sounds I am making and this is a way of hearing what else I can do with that. This approach is very simple (i.e. not rocket science), is applicable to any style, and does not entail anything more than what we already know. It isn't a study in improvising, but does allow us to play without restriction and rules, at least for that moment in time.

Edit: I see that in a followup post, you did mention the other book I recommended. I have it, but don't use it religiously. It is quite good, but is really aimed at the intermediate player. I like his take on the CAGED system in the appendix - much broader than is typically described. I think the book is one of those print on demand, so if you order it, it will probably show up within a couple of weeks.

Tony

[rick-slo]

Does noodling count as improvising? Does practicing chord inversion locations and scales count as improvising? Do mistakes count if they suit your ears?
Though I do think you can take advantage of these sort of things to use later on within the context of an actual tune.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, improvisation is idiomatic. That's why I didn't want to push too far down the "jazz" route, because while there's plenty of improv in jazz, it didn't sound to me like the OP was playing jazz, or anything like it.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by dkstott

I apologize for taking it out of context. My response was directed toward the OP's initial request for help in fingerstyle improvisation.

RE: Robert Conti, there is indeed a lot of good in his DVD's and books and he has a ton of fans.

I just got tired of trying to sift through his complex chording in the arrangements to end up with something that was more preferable to my ear & likes. Then add in my need to translate his pick work to make it work for fingerstyle.

A recommendation for the OP might be to look at the lessons by Rolly Brown in Stefan Grossmans site

#1 Nuts & Bolts Approach to Exploring Fingerstyle Jazz - Rolly Brown

#2 Owning A Jazz Standard taught by Rolly Brown

Thanks dkstott. It can get confusing, keeping track of who said what and to whom in a thread sometimes. I probably should have been more specific about why I quoted the person that I did.

As for getting confused about how to use Conti's approach in a less dense matter, I can certainly see that. What I did was to listen to a lot of chord melody. There are a couple of really good books of Barry Galbraith chord melody solos from Mel Bay that are very good. Once I went through Conti's "Formula" book, I could easily get what Barry Galbraith was doing harmonically. Without that background, all we are doing is "wiggling our fingers" to get the right notes without really understanding it for ourselves.

From Galbraith's chord melody solos, I was able to get the "rest of the story", so to speak, and therefore be able to get more out of the stuff I learned from Conti. I really think that these four books provide a great way to get into chord melody playing. "Assembly Line" gives you the mechanics of lining up chords to melody. Though it is ultimately not the way one would play, it is a really good way to get to understand the process. "The Formula" then gives you the sense of how harmony works. The Galbraith books are just transcriptions of finished chord melody arrangements, but they show you how to really use what Conti teaches. These books all fit really well together.

I don't see the point in simply regurgitating the Galbriath arrangements (or anybody else's) as performances, though they would sound great. To me, you use these as vehicles to learn how to do it yourself, and then for any performances, make up your own.

Of course, this is but one path to get going. There are many and I would not want to imply otherwise.

The Rolly Brown materials you recommend look really good too. He seems to be a really good teacher with yet another approach.

Tony

[Looburst]

It's certainly not rocket science. The first thing you need to do is to learn triads, or thirds up the neck. These are three note chords that can be played up the neck by switching or inverting those three notes to where they're in different positions.

In other words, let's take an A chord, now play it up the neck, at the 5th and 6th frets by using your index finger to lay across the first three highest strings at the 5th fret, E, B and G strings, then take your middle finger and depress the G string on the 6th fret. That's a triad of A, up the neck. If you also add the third finger at the 7th fret D string, that's a fully strummed A chord too.

One more, now take the fingering you would use for a D chord and slide it all the way up to the 9th and 10th frets, that's another triad of A! There are many of these in every key, you just have to know how to find them.
There ended the lesson!

[Looburst]

Oh, forgot to tell you that if you just hold down those first three high strings at the 5th fret only, that's another way to play an Am chord. Obviously only strumming those three high strings. EXPLORE!