Experimental Grand Concert

Haans · #1 09-28-2010, 04:13 AM

What better way to kick off a new purfling than with an experimental guitar. The idea is to eliminate the "tone bars" by using a large bridge patch extending father back on the top and hopefully make the sound producing area more responsive.
Some are using a spruce honeycomb with a top cap as sort of a double top in the area, but I preferred using a solid spruce patch for various reasons.
The purfling log...

The log, a slice, and the rosette...

Closeup of the rosette...

Glueing the braces...

The braced top ready to final tune. A blend of old and new, Larson laminated X bracing and the large bridge patch. I've also added a spruce soundhole patch to beef up that area.

cpabolting · #2 09-28-2010, 05:54 AM

Alot like Kevin Ryan's innovation...the Acoustic Parallel Plate:

Haans · #3 09-28-2010, 06:34 AM

And a lot different. He refers to his as a double top style plate. I had some honeycomb lasered and build one of those without all the fru-fru backwards lettering and such and it actually came out heavier than the solid plate I'm using.
The honeycomb is lighter than Ryan's, and as you can see, the honeycomb weighed 25 grams, the solid plate without holes weighed 30 grams and as finally used cam out at 16 grams. It is around .020" thinner than the 30 gram and tapers.
I think that solid, it might transfer energy better.

old6strng · #4 09-28-2010, 06:53 AM

I can’t wait to see the final guitar. Looks like it will be a beautiful one.

One question, I might have missed it in another forum but, what does the honeycomb sound plate do? Is it for stability and strength and/or does it help the sound?

thanks

Chazmo · #5 09-28-2010, 07:02 AM

Hans,

It'd be very interesting to compare the two types of bridge plates, detailed weight notwithstanding. My ignorant, layman's view would be exactly what you said... that a solid plate would transfer more vibration to the soundboard than the honeycomb-style lam. My understanding of the honeycomb thing when used as a double top or back is that it does a very good job of separating the inner tonewood (and letting it vibrate) from the outer wood so that the inner wood vibrates and contributes to the tone. As we all know, traditional laminations tend to dampen vibrations.

Although, obviously Kevin Ryan *is* using a honeycomb lam. for a bridge plate, so that alone is fascinating. Seems counter-intuitive to me.

Structurally speaking, I'll bet the lam. bridge plate works really well to stabilize the lower bout and avoid geometry changes in the soundboard over time (probably better than standard bracing).

Keep us posted on that, Hans.

Oh, and purfling is looking yummy.

Good luck with the GC!

Joe Sustaire · #6 09-28-2010, 07:22 AM

Mighty fine looking work Haans!

You know I'm always watching and learning from you!

Thanks,
Joe

Cornerstone Guitars · #7 09-28-2010, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haans

.....
I think that solid, it might transfer energy better.

I beg to differ..

Kevin Ryan is a personal friend of mine and he is one of the great minds in guitar building today. We owe a lot of innovations to him- from tools, jigs and designs. In fact if it wasn't for him i probably wouldn't be were I am today.Several years ago I showed him my "hollowcore" double top design before anyone else saw it. He liked the design and gave me the thumbs up. I had since insisted he should build a double top but he never did. Not that he didn't want to but because he wanted to come up with his own take on the concept and make it another innovation. A couple of years later he called me and said "you gotta see this!!"
Once again Kevin Ryan had spend a several quiet months brainstorming to come up with his take on the double top and the Acoustic Paralel Plate was born. The whole concept of the double top is not so much in weight reduction but a lot to do with strengthening a specific area. The hollow design acts much like an I-beam which I guarantee it's stronger than a single patch of wood. Personally since the design you used is obviously copied from Kevin's design since it looks exactly the same I think credit should be given rather than the contrary....

kyee · #8 09-28-2010, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpabolting

Alot like Kevin Ryan's innovation...the Acoustic Parallel Plate:

I was thinking the same thing...

Haans · #9 09-28-2010, 04:56 PM

I have obviously crossed a line here, and my apologies for pissing you off. I guess I'll just saw the top up and throw it away. I would hope that all the others that are making variations on the design would cut up their tops too. I sure can't compete with the great minds of guitar building.
I'll give Kevin credit for eliminating the tone bars and putting what I see as a large patch in their place (the only part that I used). My intention was not to make the top stiffer, rather to make it more flexible than tone bars or ladders in those areas.
BTW, I hope you all are giving Larson Bros. credit for the X braces you are all using...
Consider the experiment over.

cpabolting · #10 09-28-2010, 05:42 PM

It is all good. There no disputing Kevin's talent and innovation and I take no issue someone coming up with something along the same line, taking kevins anre refining it, it is all in the name of getting these guitars better for us as an end user. I don't think anyone should get offended, protective or critical. I like what Hans is doing and how he is continuing to push the envelope.

Hans, I think it would be foolish for you to abandon the experiment, if it were not for that constantly seeking a new way to do things, we would not be the beneficiaries of all the effort. Kevin is a great guy and a great mind. I don't think Hans was being critical in any way just expanding on his own thought process.

Rock on Hans, don't abandon the ship!!! You are doing some great guitar building.

Larry Pattis · #11 09-28-2010, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haans

I have obviously crossed a line here, and my apologies for pissing you off. I guess I'll just saw the top up and throw it away. I would hope that all the others that are making variations on the design would cut up their tops too. I sure can't compete with the great minds of guitar building.
I'll give Kevin credit for eliminating the tone bars and putting what I see as a large patch in their place (the only part that I used). My intention was not to make the top stiffer, rather to make it more flexible than tone bars or ladders in those areas.
BTW, I hope you all are giving Larson Bros. credit for the X braces you are all using...
Consider the experiment over.

I like you, Haans!

Very cool rosette, and I like the carbon-tubes...*and* the bridge-plate...keep examining, building and innovating.

justonwo · #12 09-28-2010, 06:07 PM

What's the theory behind this design? Is there really a precise rhyme or reason for the size and location of the holes? Or just the result of some trial and error? It certainly looks really cool.

Natwhilk44 · #13 09-28-2010, 11:52 PM

My friend Nate Wilson told me about this thread and suggested I take a quick look in.

And, of course, I am happy that folks are interested in the Parallel Plate. It has been a huge development for us here in my shop and I am encouraged that it is inspiring other builders to adopt their own version of it.

But I should clear up some possible misinformation that is implied in the thread.

One of the main goals in the original development of the APP was that it should be phenomenally lightweight (it is, of course, incredibly stiff). But the thread as posted by Haans compared his version with my version. Haans said the honeycomb he had lasered “actually came out heavier than the solid plate I’m using”

And then he said “the honeycomb was lighter than Ryan’s”.

I was scratching my head trying to figure out how Haans got hold of one of my APPs. But then I re-read the post and I realized (I think) he was comparing his own version of the APP with one that he himself had also made (which, I guess, he assumed was like my original.)

Here, naturally I sympathize with Haans. I understand that it is hard to copy an engineered design just from the pictures off my website. (And hats off to him for catching the discreet detail of the backwards lettering—a little touch for all my clients who love to go inside their instruments with a mirror!)

At any rate (unless I am missing something) all this could possibly lead one to believe that my APP is much heavier than it actually is. But it is actually extremely light. To compare, Haans said his own plate “as finally used” was 16 grams. But my actual APP of the size he is comparing is only about 7 grams. Here, of course, there is so much fun room for different ideas but my own thinking is that his 16 grams in that area is more than double what I would want on a comparable instrument. With my old bracing system, I was unhappy to get over 12 grams for all that bracing that the Acoustic Parallel Plate is replacing. So the 7 grams is a fairly light alternative to all the other bracing that is traditionally down there.

But this is all just one more reason why luthierie is so seductive (and exasperating!). There is so much to explore, isn’t there? And my own thinking is continually evolving about these sorts of things.

And a quick note to Chazmo about laminations tending to dampen sound. It is a very good point. That, however, is another reason why I developed the APP—there is so much less surface glued to the soundboard. The honeycomb is the surface that glues to the soundboard surface, creating minimal contact. Because, at the end of the day, a traditional bridge plate itself (when it is glued to the soundboard) becomes itself a large lamination, doesn’t it? And the bigger the bridge plate, the bigger the lamination. And, as you wisely guessed, Chazmo, the swail behind the bridge has been completely eliminated with the APP. But I reckon that should be discussed on a separate thread.

So, it is great to see luthierie thriving and ideas bouncing around like this. This is good for the craft. And I trust this has been ok for me to try to help by posting my observations. If any luthier out there is interested, I would obviously be happy to help with more of the engineering behind the APP.

Also, if any one would like to see a slightly more comprehensive explanation of some of the engineering and inspiration for the APP (thanks, Peter Marreiros) the link is here.
http://www.ryanguitars.com/theguitars/RIB/APPDOC.htm

Good luck to everyone on their builds. And to you, Haans, nice shop, buddy! It has the look of a well-worked-in shop.
Kevin Ryan
Westminster, California

cpabolting · #14 09-29-2010, 02:10 AM

And there you have it from the man himself. Hans, keep up the good work. Pressing the envelope always gets us all farther down the road.

Michael Watts · #15 09-29-2010, 02:31 AM

I think it's fair to point out to those that may not have been aware of the fact, that Haans is one of the world's foremost mandolin luthiers and as far as pushing the boundaries goes, his instruments are renowned for their beauty, tone, excellent workmanship and well-thought out design.

His guitars seem to be following in a similar vein.