Guitars for investment?

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by Schoolside

Sell it when the economy turns... I can hold it, play it and enjoy it until an opportunity to sell it comes my way. I don't ever have to sell it.

Did I see the flaw when I bought the gold? I sat on it for 3 years... It's a commodity play. Sold it and moved on to the next...

Thanks for the luck, I love my Ricky's. I can't name places or prices but a guy took delivery of a 381V69 the same week I got mine and consigned and sold it as a used guitar for $1500 over his cost. I know that's not typical, but that's the reality. The other reality is I have gotten some incredible buys this year.
Stuff that will never come around at this price again. It's not hard to find them, just pick up the phone.

American, 1-2k, models that were available in the 60's.

When it comes to investing, I've had the best results with MCD. People will never get tired of those Burgers and Fries. Yummmmm

Well, good luck with it.
You've effectively (and literally) purchased stock in Rickenbacker guitars, on the premise that that stock will decrease in value...at which point in time you can turn around and sell for a profit.


Been buying and selling guitars for 20+ years now.
My advice to people is do NOT buy guitars as an "investment".
What I've seen is people buy guitars because they like them, with the excuse that they are an "investment"

Now, 20 years down the line...you may indeed sell your guitars for more than you paid for them. My guess is most (if not all) of that "profit" will be the result of inflation.
Toss in shipping, storage.......

Better to just buy guitar "stock" on the stock market.
You can buy stock in good companies now that you can sell for a profit in the future when the "economy turns".
It's a much more liquid investment, and it won't take up several rooms of your house.

[musical5]

This was a 100k guitar in 1990. Seems like a pretty good return to me.

http://vintageking.com/Gibson-1959-Les-Paul-vintage

[Tunes]

If nothing else this has been a VERY interesting thread. I've often thought about other ways to invest wisely and profitably outside of the stock market.

High end watches, cars, guitars - collectibles of various kinds CAN be bought and sold for profit. I think the trick is you REALLY have to know what your looking at, in essence becoming a true expert at identifying makes and models you KNOW can be sold for such and such a price.

You will NEVER make money doing this by buying from ebay or other dealers. The only way this could possibly work would be private sales below market value - then some clean up / fix up and flip or hold and sell.

The other thing is, unlike stock which you can track every day, you really never know what a guitar is going to sell for, so it's very hard to judge the progress of your portfolio. You never know your real return until you sell.

If your investing a fictional $100,000 - you have probably have to purchase about 10 - 20 or so "rare" or true "vintage" guitars from private sales at below market value and then sell them at a profit. The really big increases only come after decades - the more rare a model becomes the more it is worth.

On the other hand, a really good stock pick can provide a 1,400 percent return in less than 10 years. Need an example? Marvel corporation. This stock bought in 2002 would have made a near 1,400 percent gain by 2009. Are there others out there like this - well not many but a few.

So unless your willing to put in years of study into guitars, I would not bother. You can "buy" great stock advice easily by getting a simple stock newsletter like Motley Fool (who by the way recommended Marvel in 2002). I doubt you can buy that kind of advice about guitars.

Do it for fun? For sure !! For profit? Not likely. It would quickly become just another job.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by musical5

This was a 100k guitar in 1990. Seems like a pretty good return to me.

http://vintageking.com/Gibson-1959-Les-Paul-vintage

Sure.
And Microsoft was a heck of an investment back when it first came out.
And Intel.
And...etc.etc.etc.

I'm sure there are some guitars you could buy today that in 40 years will be worth a lot lot more.
The problem is predicting which ones those are...and being able to wait that long.

FWIW, the Dow Jones Average in 1959 was somewhere around 600.
It's around 10,000 today. Approx. a 1600% increase.
Now...if you could predict exactly which stocks would have been the best to invest in and hold onto back in 1959...akin to knowing exactly which guitar model to buy and hold onto....the profit would have been even greater.

Or...to put it another way....
have you purchased a guitar confident that it will be a good investment?
What brand / model?
How many? If one...why only one?

[miksel]

Originally Posted by Jeff M

No.
Doesn't happen.
All you have to do is look at the classifieds to see that.

First off, 50% off MSRP (at least in the case of Martin's, Taylor's and Gibson's) is not something you are likely to find. At least from a dealer who is trying to make a profit and not a loss.
Second..the vast majority of guitars do not appreciate.
Even models like Gibson "Montana's", Martin "Vintage" series do not appreciate like that. At least not in the short (or medium) run.

If I can get a $2,000 guitar at 50% off MSRP...so $1000, why should I pay somebody for the same guitar used, lets say at 3 years old, for around $1120 (assuming appreciation at 4% a year)?
Especially since it's warranty no longer applies.

Having bought and sold many used guitars over the years, I can tell you that doesn't happen.

If you buy a used guitar and then turn around and sell it, you may see some appreciation.
That is not a certainty either...especially when you toss in several hundreds of dollars in shipping charges to and fro.

If you wan't to make 4% a year, put your money elsewhere.

Jeff M and Schoolside,This may seem like bizarre reasoning but bear with me.With the stunts seen the last couple of years by Wall Street i have pretty much lost faith in them.At 50 years old this wasnt my first rodeo with the Wall Street con men and their fiascos and i have retreated to safer havens.I certainly wouldnt put my retirement fund in guitars unless i owned a music store or was a bona fied expert but;Bob Taylor and Kurt Listug are both in their 60s and whether you like the tone or not they make excellent instruments.The mid-upper level ones are solid wood,American made.C.F. Martin 3 as i understand it has one child,a daughter Clair.Again whether you like their tone or not they make excellent instruments and again their mid-upper level instruments are solid wood and American made.There are a number of fine small shop luthiers,several of whom have posted here making solid wood,made in America instruments that probably will cease to be built once they retire.I think if you enjoy playing,that one could certainly do worse than invest a bit of ones disposable income on guitars from these fine companies and buildersRespectfully,Mike S.

[stream]

Lots of opinions in this thread. Not too many facts

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by miksel

Jeff M and Schoolside,This may seem like bizarre reasoning but bear with me.With the stunts seen the last couple of years by Wall Street i have pretty much lost faith in them.At 50 years old this wasnt my first rodeo with the Wall Street con men and their fiascos and i have retreated to safer havens.I certainly wouldnt put my retirement fund in guitars unless i owned a music store or was a bona fied expert but;Bob Taylor and Kurt Listug are both in their 60s and whether you like the tone or not they make excellent instruments.The mid-upper level ones are solid wood,American made.C.F. Martin 3 as i understand it has one child,a daughter Clair.Again whether you like their tone or not they make excellent instruments and again their mid-upper level instruments are solid wood and American made.There are a number of fine small shop luthiers,several of whom have posted here making solid wood,made in America instruments that probably will cease to be built once they retire.I think if you enjoy playing,that one could certainly do worse than invest a bit of ones disposable income on guitars from these fine companies and buildersRespectfully,Mike S.

I own/have owned around 15 "custom built" solo builder guitars over the years by 10 or 11 builders...including some very well known names.

Bought each of them because I liked the way they sounded and played. The potential for investment never entered my mind.
At various times I could have turned around and sold maybe 6 for a profit during the entire time I owned them.
At this present time, I can sell maybe 2 or 3 for a profit. Guitars built by 2 of those builders.


In the future...who knows?
The vast, vast majority of guitar players have never heard of many builders that we consider to be (for whatever reasons) the "best of the best".
Folks like Somogyi, Traugott, Kevin Ryan.
Some other builders with top notch reputations that I suspect even the more "initiated" are unfamilliar with...Bruce Petros, Kim Walker, Julius Borges, John Monteleone, Dudenbostel, Kathy Winger, Stefan Sobell, Tippin, David Eichelbaum.....etc.etc.etc.
Who will be buying these guitars?
There are many excellent custom builders building today.
The question is.....will their reputations grow over time, or will they get lost in the flood of other excellent builders selling to what is a very limited, specialized market?
As I don't buy guitars for investment purposes, it is really a moot question for me.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by stream

Lots of opinions in this thread. Not too many facts

Opinion based on personal experience here.

If you are aware of any statistics showing how the "guitar market" has performed over the years I'd be interested in seeing it.
My guess is it would be very specialized..ie, looking at a few models such as a '59 LP, and over a long period of time (decades).
Hard to project from a few examples to an entire market.

Be like taking the best performer in the stock market over the past 50 years and projecting to the market as a whole.

Re; facts...
if it is indeed the case that shops are selling new Vintage Series Martins for 50% off MSRP, it should be possible to provide a link to those sites.
And if used Vintage Series Martin's are being sold for more than what new ones are selling for, links to those sites should be available also.

Just spend some time looking at our classifieds section.
The number of, not only Martin's, Taylor's, Gibson's, etc. that sell well below what they were purchased at, but many many "high end" custom built guitars that don't sell for anything near what the original purchase price was.

[davis53]

Originally Posted by Jeff M

Re; facts...
if it is indeed the case that shops are selling new Vintage Series Martins for 50% off MSRP,

I would like to know where to buy at 50% off.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by davis53

I would like to know where to buy at 50% off.

You and me both.

[musical5]

Originally Posted by stream

Lots of opinions in this thread. Not too many facts

http://vintageking.com/Gibson-1959-Les-Paul-vintage
This guitar sold for 100k in 1990. No opinion there.

[NAFIGATOR]

Originally Posted by stream

Lots of opinions in this thread. Not too many facts

I have facts and records on how you can make [some] money on used guitar market while enjoying the process . I am not about to discuss details in open forum, but if someone is seriously interested, I can share it in PM.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by musical5

http://vintageking.com/Gibson-1959-Les-Paul-vintage
This guitar sold for 100k in 1990. No opinion there.

Yes. It did.
So?
If you were around back then, why didn't you a handful of them?

Can we safely assume that there is some stock out there, or piece of property...or art work, or....guitar....that will appreciate as much over the next 50 years?
Why haven't you bought all of that stock/art/property/guitar that you can?

Do you think that people invest in things that will lose money do so on purpose?
Why don't they always invest in things that will increase in value?
There is that little problem of being able to predict what is a good investment and what isn't.

Hindsight....20/20.

[stream]

I think a lot of people are confusing true investing with buying and selling used guitars for a profit.

[musical5]

I dont personally buy guitars for investment purposes.

Originally Posted by Jeff M

Yes. It did.
So?
If you were around back then, why didn't you a handful of them?

Can we safely assume that there is some stock out there, or piece of property...or art work, or....guitar....that will appreciate as much over the next 50 years?
Why haven't you bought all of that stock/art/property/guitar that you can?

Do you think that people invest in things that will lose money do so on purpose?
Why don't they always invest in things that will increase in value?
There is that little problem of being able to predict what is a good investment and what isn't.

Hindsight....20/20.