Swing and a miss (a story of used purchase and return)

[Seagull S6]

For something as important as a guitar, always check it out in person. R/H folks have it so easy, take advantage of that. You can go to many shops and try literally hundreds of guitars until you find "The One" so easily.

Even in a run of the same model from the same production run, there are differences between guitars that are not apparent unless you play them in person.

That idea even works for the L/H market because if a shop does have a L/H guitar, there is a very good possibility it will be hanging on the wall until the end of time. I did get burnt by that on a very nice sounding and playing L/H Taylor once. I went back 3 days after I had seen it in a pawn shop thinking that as a humanitarian gesture I would offer to "take it off their hands" and it was gone.

[wxfloyd]

Originally Posted by Speedwagon

I think your final full paragraph tells the entire story and illustrates the difference. You saw what you were getting and paid for a known, to you, commodity. The OP trusted the evaluation of the seller and, admittedly, stretched his budget to make the purchase. Maybe that used Collings, at $1200, was a great guitar and the OP would have accepted it. Maybe he paid $2000+ for it and, at that price, its condition was not acceptable. I will bet that you would not have purchased the used guitar you referenced if it were at a higher price point.

You hit the nail on the head with that bit I highlighted above. Had it been significantly cheaper, I would have accepted it as it was, then looked into getting some work done on it. But at the price I paid, as stated a little beyond my initial budget, I simply could not afford making any repairs to it in the near future.

Lesson learned. Unless there is absolute proof beyond any shadow of doubt, and there is a return policy in place, I think I'm about done buying used sight unseen. Since Collings are known to have good consistency, I was hopeful that trying a model to know I like it, then buying the same model online would prove to work out.
Now buying new, that's another story. But I would still only buy from a reputable dealer, and ideally an AGF sponser.
As I said earlier, the shop has been very good so far. So as far as overall customer service goes, they've been beyond satisfactory.

[MrDB]

I think "Mint Condition" is an overused term. Some people have a hard time being objective about what they are selling, and "stretch the truth" a bit to hopefully make a little more money.

Before I typed this I got my 000-28 out and gave it an inspection. I've owned it for several years but it has never left the house and rarely left the guitar room where I'm sitting now. Other than some very slight pick marks on the pick guard (I play mostly fingerstyle and don't use a pick very often) it doesn't have a mark on it.

Is that "mint"? Or "Excellent" condition?

If I were selling it I'd be very hesitant to list it as mint. It is not "as new" and to me that's what mint means. YMMV

Originally Posted by guitar12

You got to be kidding right? I wouldn't care if it was a Collings or an Esteban, if I received a guitar that needed that level of work it would be on it's way back that very same day.

C'mon now, I didn't just spout off something without thinking about it first: He could have fixed that neck angle himself with a shim from Stew-Mac after loosing two bolts. It's a cheap, easy job. Or he could have had a local tech fix it cheap too. And a couple of small dings? It's used, there's going to be some dings and scratches. If he had bought a Martin with a low saddle I'd have said something different because that's a $300+ job on a dovetail joint. On a Collings though, look it up, not the same thing. I buy used guitars from time to time, I never expect to get something that looks new and never have.

People take brand new guitars straight to a tech for a setup. Why is it so hard to imagine a used one might need the same?

This reminds me of a David Lettermen joke he told his first time on the Tonight Show with Carson: "I heard there's a new dog food on the market. They advertise that is has no cereal in it and that my dog would be happier eating this dog food. My dog drinks from the toilet bowl several times a day, I don't think he minds a little cereal." I'm not sure why that joke came to my mind when reading your post, but it did.

[kcnbys]

Also, for the sake of perspective - on Reverb a rating of "Very Good" is two or three ratings down from "Mint". Also, a "dent" to you may just be a "ding" to me. A guitar's condition can sometimes be as subjective as it's tone - ha! Also, the OP was never told by a tech that the guitar absolutely needed a neck reset, he just stated he wasn't comfortable with some circumstantial evidence. I don't blame the OP for returning a guitar that was not to his satisfaction; I mean, if you don't like it, don't keep it. But I do tend to agree that maybe the expectations were a bit on the high side, all things considered.

[J Patrick]

...i don't see an issue here...you take a chance on a used guitar from a reputable dealer...you wisely make sure there is a return policy in place...the guitar doesn't cut it...it is less than it was described to you....you send it back and move on...

...it happens all the time....yes there is some time and maybe a little money lost but that is the cost of buying online....from all accounts there are many more online transactions that go smoothly than not.

...i'm not suggesting you shouldn't let off a little steam here and you've done it in a very classy way...just adding my perspective...

[DenverSteve]

Originally Posted by MrDB

I think "Mint Condition" is an overused term. Some people have a hard time being objective about what they are selling, ...

Originally Posted by wxfloyd

Well I thought I had it. I thought I had the guitar I was searching for, at a price I could (somewhat) afford.... It was listed as very good condition

For starters, the OP never stated the seller listed the guitar as "mint". Very good gets any used guitar down into the "you're probably going to find more dings/mars/scratches... than you originally expect" category. This certainly includes a good set up which costs more money.

Originally Posted by wxfloyd

Well I thought I had it. I thought I had the guitar I was searching for, at a price I could (somewhat) afford.
I had already pushed my budget to get this guitar, ...Maybe I was expecting more than I should have for a guitar listed in very good condition. Had it been significantly cheaper, I would have accepted it as it was, then looked into getting some work done on it. But at the price I paid, as stated a little beyond my initial budget, I simply could not afford making any repairs to it in the near future.

Lesson learned. Unless there is absolute proof beyond any shadow of doubt, and there is a return policy in place, I think I'm about done buying used sight unseen.

Next posts by the OP, to me, say it all. For me - never buy a guitar that "pushes" your budget - especially used. You will almost always need to have it set up for your playing. Also, with several mentions of spending, budget and "I could not afford.." comments, there sounds like a bit of buyer's remorse in here as well. In the end you made the best comment of the entire thread, and I agree, NEVER BUY USED, SIGHT UNSEEN.

[sid45]

dealers will omit significant details and hope they can get away with it, I had a dealer in utah send me a martin with a neck reset needed,I had been told it didnt need one, it is sad but you cant believe sellers. fwiw guitars shouldnt need setups when new, they should be good to go or people will fall down the worm hole of "making it right " and risk losing the sound they bought and paid for. for the large bucks spent playability shouldnt be an issue

[ManyMartinMan]

Originally Posted by sid45

..fwiw guitars shouldnt need setups when new, they should be good to go..

Actually, I find new to be the best (and most necessary) time for a good set up. Because of manufacturing bias there’s no way to expect any manufacturer to have a guitar setup that is perfect for anyone specifically or certainly everyone. Then there is time between manufacture to delivery for things to settle. Then there are playing style differences. Bluegrass players, strummers, finger-pickers... don’t want the same set up. Not to mention temperature and humidity changes from manufacture, let’s say in Bend Oregon, and delivery to Phoenix, for example which will require adjustment. The there are dozens of different strings that play differently..... and that’s just new. Now add in all the possibilities for used guitars. Now, after you’ve had your new guitar set up perfectly for you... a year, or so, later things may have changed so annually may be a good time for revisiting the set up.... I recommend having every new guitar set up a month or so after receipt to get things dialed in for you after it has acclimated to its new environment.

You see, I don’t believe that “good to go” is ever good enough.

[Bunnyf]

Bought and sold several instruments on both eBay and reverb. They have always been in at least one step down or more with regard to condition than was stated. After getting burned the first time, I always take this into consideration when I make an offer. I want to feel that I got a good value, even if there were a few more nicks or scratches than I expected. If I were searching for pristine, I wouldn't buy online. I've used online purchasing only when what I wanted I could not afford new and was ok with a bit of wear on an otherwise good instrument. I'm always certain of the return policy too.
When I'm the seller, I list my instrument as being in one level lower condition than I believe it to be in. I don't want the hassle of someone being disappointed. I also try to mark (with blue tape) and capture in photo any ding or defect. Full disclosure, to the best of your ability is really the best way to go.
If an item can likely be found in my local market, like on CL, I try to be patient and watch and wait. Nothing beats seeing it in person. My truly mint used Taylor was found locally at about 60% of new.

[fishstick_kitty]

I have bought so many used guitars that I have lost count (it has to be in the 50-60 range). I have almost always bought from somebody on this forum and I have had REALLY good luck.

Buying used gives normal people like us the ability to try out guitars that are just not available near us new at a price that we can almost always recoup if we decide to sell later on.

I personally wouldn't pay the premium of buying a new guitar just because of one bad (not really too bad) experience.

[JasonA]

Originally Posted by fishstick_kitty

I have bought so many used guitars that I have lost count (it has to be in the 50-60 range). I have almost always bought from somebody on this forum and I have had REALLY good luck.

Buying used gives normal people like us the ability to try out guitars that are just not available near us new at a price that we can almost always recoup if we decide to sell later on.

I personally wouldn't pay the premium of buying a new guitar just because of one bad (not really too bad) experience.

Same. I've bought a similar number from here, Reverb and Ebay. The vast majority have been as described. In fact, I can only think of 2-3 with issues. With how many have passed through my hands, I'm guessing that's about a 96% success rate.

[BlueCajun]

Originally Posted by Bunnyf

Bought and sold several instruments on both eBay and reverb. They have always been in at least one step down or more with regard to condition than was stated. After getting burned the first time, I always take this into consideration when I make an offer. I want to feel that I got a good value, even if there were a few more nicks or scratches than I expected. If I were searching for pristine, I wouldn't buy online. I've used online purchasing only when what I wanted I could not afford new and was ok with a bit of wear on an otherwise good instrument. I'm always certain of the return policy too.
When I'm the seller, I list my instrument as being in one level lower condition than I believe it to be in. I don't want the hassle of someone being disappointed. I also try to mark (with blue tape) and capture in photo any ding or defect. Full disclosure, to the best of your ability is really the best way to go.

Completely agree. I see far too many ads on Reverb claiming gear to be in better condition than it is. And Reverb has pretty good guidelines to help people:
https://reverb.com/news/gear-conditi...what-they-mean

Still, the number of ads claiming "excellent" or "mint" condition boggles my mind.

[Seagull S6]

Originally Posted by ManyMartinMan

Actually, I find new to be the best (and most necessary) time for a good set up. Because of manufacturing bias there’s no way to expect any manufacturer to have a guitar setup that is perfect for anyone specifically or certainly everyone. Then there is time between manufacture to delivery for things to settle. Then there are playing style differences. Bluegrass players, strummers, finger-pickers... don’t want the same set up. Not to mention temperature and humidity changes from manufacture, let’s say in Bend Oregon, and delivery to Phoenix, for example which will require adjustment. The there are dozens of different strings that play differently..... and that’s just new. Now add in all the possibilities for used guitars. Now, after you’ve had your new guitar set up perfectly for you... a year, or so, later things may have changed so annually may be a good time for revisiting the set up.... I recommend having every new guitar set up a month or so after receipt to get things dialed in for you after it has acclimated to its new environment.

You see, I don’t believe that “good to go” is ever good enough.

Totally agree. When I bought my SG new, in the course of doing the set-up, the Luthier found a fret that was a little low so I got a level and crown, as well. Money well spent..............