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  #61  
Old 01-18-2018, 01:52 PM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Ahem...this is my last post on this thread and I am repeating my experience.

When I first received my Pono Slope Shoulder Sitka/Mahogany Dread it was very bright and stiff-sounding. I almost returned it.
I chose to strum all kinds of chords on it hard every day for five to ten minutes.This was based on what some members had done with their own guitars and claimed it made a difference. I did this for about a month.
I noticed it began to sound less harsh in the trebles and mids and warmer and more rounded in the bass. As time went on, it has continued to do so.
For the record I have had a myriad of strings on it in lights and mediums.

You can call it what you want or reject it altogether. All I know is it doesn't sound the same as it did a year ago and for the better. My playing partner agrees and he didn't care for the guitar's tone at first either. Something happened.
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  #62  
Old 01-18-2018, 01:53 PM
jaymarsch jaymarsch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar george View Post
A properly humidified guitar will sound better than an under or over humidified guitar. Part of "opening up" may have something to do with the fact that, over time, guitar players become more aware of and monitor humidity levels.
I scanned this and thought that it said Part of "opening up" may have something to do with the fact that, over time, guitar players become more aware of and monitor humility levels.

I definitely think that is true for me. Opening up to my own humility makes everything better.

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  #63  
Old 01-18-2018, 01:57 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Originally Posted by AllThumbsBruce View Post
The highly respected dealer I know well thinks it's funny that folks bring their guitars back in saying how much the have opened up when they really sound the same as when they walked out the door. I don't think it is as one-sided as you portray.
Okay, then he would be an exception to the rule. All the guitar builders and guitar dealers I have ever spoken to about this accept the breaking in of acoustic guitars to be simple fact. As I've pointed out before, the ONLY place where this is even remotely controversial is in online guitar forums like this one. Not out in the real world.

One of the reasons that some folks doubt the idea is the exorbitant, overly dramatic claims that are sometimes made for the breaking in process. Anyone who's been in more than a couple of music stores has probably encountered sleazeball music store employees who try to sell off bad- or dead-sounding acoustic guitars by claiming: "Once this baby breaks in, it's going to sound SO sweet..."

Nah, it doesn't work that way, and it doesn't make lousy-sounding guitars sound terrific. It's a subtle process, and it's obviously subtle enough that some people miss it entirely.

But anyone who has been in a custom guitarmaker's shop when she or he first strings up a new guitar, as I have, will have heard the remarkable changes to the sound that occur within the first thirty minutes of the guitar being strung up. The process continues less dramatically from there, but it does continue.


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  #64  
Old 01-18-2018, 02:03 PM
roylor4 roylor4 is offline
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If you ever experience it, you may still question why but you won't deny it's real then.

I had a guitar go from being for sale to my favorite guitar in the house within about one week. The change in tone was dramatic and drastic. The phenomena is real TO ME. Whether it's humidity changes, acoustic guitar fairies or the presence of Bigfoot, I don't care how. I know it's real. As usual, YMMV
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  #65  
Old 01-18-2018, 02:09 PM
AHill AHill is offline
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Originally Posted by Rmz76 View Post
The bottom line is that it's all about moisture in the wood. In the right environment and given enough time wood looses moisture. As this happens it becomes more dense/harder and lighter and experiments show this aids in the sustain. Good sustain is one of the attributes most players are looking for in an acoustic guitar.... In an environment with a lot of humidity the opposite effect can happen. The guitar can absorb moisture and this can have a dampening effect on tone.
I think your statement might be misinterpreted. A freshly cut tree will lose moisture until it reaches equilibrium with the environment, then it will only change when the environment changes (temperature and relative humidity). Wood doesn't continue to lose moisture until it's zero. Luthiers and guitar builders don't build guitars out of freshly milled wood. It's seasoned (kiln or air dried) until it reaches equilibrium before they work with it.

In addition to moisture, there are resins in the wood. Resins cure over time and become solid or stiffer over time. That's part of the opening up process. Some makers torrify, or bake their wood. It's not to remove the moisture. It's to cure the resins (sap) in the wood.
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  #66  
Old 01-18-2018, 02:19 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hampton View Post
......It's a subtle process, and it's obviously subtle enough that some people miss it entirely..........anyone who has been in a custom guitarmaker's shop when she or he first strings up a new guitar, as I have, will have heard the remarkable changes to the sound that occur within the first thirty minutes of the guitar being strung up.....
It is extremely subtle. I work as an acoustical engineer (34 years now) and it would be quite challenging to design the experiment to measure these tiny little differences. My ear is far better with subtleties of sound than the $30K analyzers and laboratory grade instrumentation microphones that I can access (these are specialty microphones that cost more than my guitars).

Once you have "data", quantifying the changes would be a further formidable challenge. Would a guitar be considered as "opened up" when there is a 3 dB increase in the third harmonic of a given string? What about the fifth or seventh harmonic, or a different forcing frequency (string pitch)? You brain is doing all of this signal processing subconsciously when you listen to and evaluate tone, you just cannot easily put numbers on your brain.

The closest analogy I can make is quantifying the fit of a new pair of sneakers, versus the same shoes well broken in months later. You might be able to quantify the pressure points or tightness at key areas, but subjective comfort is in the eye (or foot) of the beholder.

Bob Taylor has stated in print many times that he hears three distinct differences in the tone of a guitar during its lifetime. In the first hour, after about two months, and again after about ten years. I have personally experienced the latter two stages with guitars that I have owned.
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  #67  
Old 01-18-2018, 02:33 PM
HHP HHP is offline
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One thing that has always struck me is that this fascination with opening up doesn't seem to be shared by classical guitarists. I'm sure they allow for breaking in but they don't seem drawn to play vintage instruments. In interviews I read with both Segovia and Parkening, they both indicated they retired instruments after a few years of play. Segovia called them "played out" as I recall. He referred to his famous Hauser that way.
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  #68  
Old 01-18-2018, 02:59 PM
rct rct is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHP View Post
One thing that has always struck me is that this fascination with opening up doesn't seem to be shared by classical guitarists. I'm sure they allow for breaking in but they don't seem drawn to play vintage instruments. In interviews I read with both Segovia and Parkening, they both indicated they retired instruments after a few years of play. Segovia called them "played out" as I recall. He referred to his famous Hauser that way.
I stay out of this kind of...debate because I've been playing a long time and have retired electrics and acoustics. The just don't do it anymore, I don't know if they are fatigued or what, but played out is good.

I don't think anyone could doubt a subtle breaking in of any guitar in the early months, provided you use it fairly vigorously.

But betting on a guitar "opening up" and someday sounding fantastic is not my idea of guitar buying. It sounds great now or I don't do it. I also don't agree with counseling new players with an implicit guarantee that it will "open up in a few years" and you'll really be loving it. I also don't think it should be included in any sales type talk.

A guitar changes, but only to the owner, they are the only one that can sense it. It is so undramatic as to require a fairly heightened awareness of that particular guitar, and trying to determine what any strange guitar is going to do someday is a waste of time.

rct
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  #69  
Old 01-18-2018, 05:33 PM
Twelvefret Twelvefret is offline
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Several posts over time have said their guitars opened up after having Bryan Kimsey worked on them.
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  #70  
Old 01-18-2018, 05:36 PM
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KevWind KevWind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shortfinger View Post
This could be titled alternatively: did that guitar's sound really improve, or did you, instead, "open up" to the guitar, after playing it a lot?

Or another way: where's the proof the sound is different enough to be heard by the human ear?

And why don't pianos, acoustic instruments with spruce soundboards, get discussed in "opening up" terms? Or cellos?

This retired engineer wants to hear all about it.
Here ya go ...I think we can accept as scientific fact, this one opened up quite a bit

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  #71  
Old 01-18-2018, 05:47 PM
Shortfinger Shortfinger is offline
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Mr Kimsey has my '72 D18 on the bench right now for some opening up.

Neck reset, full fretting, and more. Don't know how it will sound, but it sounded good when I took it there.

Cue the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyBcHUe4WeQ
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  #72  
Old 01-18-2018, 05:49 PM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Here ya go ...I think we can accept as scientific fact, this one opened up quite a bit

Looks like somebody opened up on him with a 12 gauge.
Good thing the guitar got in the way.
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  #73  
Old 01-18-2018, 06:17 PM
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justonwo justonwo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHill View Post
I think your statement might be misinterpreted. A freshly cut tree will lose moisture until it reaches equilibrium with the environment, then it will only change when the environment changes (temperature and relative humidity). Wood doesn't continue to lose moisture until it's zero. Luthiers and guitar builders don't build guitars out of freshly milled wood. It's seasoned (kiln or air dried) until it reaches equilibrium before they work with it.

In addition to moisture, there are resins in the wood. Resins cure over time and become solid or stiffer over time. That's part of the opening up process. Some makers torrify, or bake their wood. It's not to remove the moisture. It's to cure the resins (sap) in the wood.
According to the article I linked the hygroscopicity of wood goes down as it ages. So wood does lose moisture content over time as the wood itself changes composition and becomes less hygroscopic.
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  #74  
Old 01-18-2018, 06:22 PM
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justonwo justonwo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hampton View Post
But anyone who has been in a custom guitarmaker's shop when she or he first strings up a new guitar, as I have, will have heard the remarkable changes to the sound that occur within the first thirty minutes of the guitar being strung up. The process continues less dramatically from there, but it does continue.


Wade Hampton Miller
Yep, I got to play a Buendia OM in its first 30 minutes of life. Actually, it was his famous Tree OM. It hadn’t been played at all and had just been strung up. The changes were not subtle. They were massive. In my view this process continues at a tapered rate for the first few months, and I suspect it has more to do with vibrational effects and wood deformation/settling/strain relief than a change in material properties. Over many decades perhaps material property changes dominate. Certainly, the wood properties didn’t change in the 30 minutes I played that Buendia.

I’ve been the first person to play probably 10 Baraniks as well. Big changes right up front. No fancy instrumentation required to detect them.
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  #75  
Old 01-18-2018, 06:50 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHP View Post
One thing that has always struck me is that this fascination with opening up doesn't seem to be shared by classical guitarists. . . . retired instruments after a few years of play. Segovia called them "played out"
Yep . . and so does James Taylor (referring to a steel string guitar).

Here's another interesting thing to me . . . I think I can hear fairly dramatic changes in how a guitar sounds with HUMIDITY (lower RH sounds better).

But I can also go upstairs and compare guitars . . . and one day Guitar A will sound the best to me, while other days Guitar B or Guitar C will sound better to me. What's up with THAT?

I can't say I've ever noticed a dramatic improvement that I'd call "opening up" . . . . although I do think I sometimes hear an improvement after using a ToneRite . . but it's more subtle than I think most people mean by "opening up".

And then there's the entire "how can you really remember what a guitar sounded like x weeks ago in the first place?" to consider.
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