The scientific proof of opening up

[jpd]

*Or another way: where's the proof the sound is different enough to be heard by the human ear?This retired engineer wants to hear all about it.*
Shortfinger

No science.....MAGIC

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Song

The speed of sound within a material (velocity) is determined by the density of its mass and its elasticity. The velocity is a constant regardless of how much force is applied (amplitude) when various properties like temperature, barometric pressure, and (for some materials) humidity are held constant. These variables affect the velocity, especially temperature. Temperature dramatically affects the density/elasticity which changes the velocity which changes the sound. Innumerable scientific experiments have already been performed to verify this Law.
My theory is that when folks think they're hearing a better instrument, what they are really hearing is a nice warm guitar with the right strings and humidity level. Humidity affects the wood (more/less water/air) which changes the velocity which changes the sound.
As an ultrasonic specialist for over 35 years I've never seen any evidence to contradict Newton's and Hooke's Laws of motion physics.

We’re talking about changes in tone with long spans of time, not in the duration of time where a guitar might change temperature. To be fair, there isn’t a whole lot of literature on this topic. The anecdotal evidence seems to suffice for those with practical experience. I’m comfortable with the notion that the wood probably irreversibly deforms and relieves a lot of strain in its first years. That’s in addition to slower changes in properties as the wood loses moisture content.

[Russ C]

Originally Posted by jpd

*Or another way: where's the proof the sound is different enough to be heard by the human ear?This retired engineer wants to hear all about it.*
Shortfinger

No science.....MAGIC

Yes, human ears vary from useless to finer than anything man can make, and when linked to a brain, from totally uneducated to very educated.

That's a broad standard to apply to objectivity - but the difficulty in being objective of course really stems from the large periods of time needed to keep records.
It would be great to have harmonic measurements of a new guitar from say 80 years ago, when such measurements couldn't be taken, and the same guitar now - it's over time spans like that where I reckon the differences between aged timbers and new timbers are most audible.

[Wild Bill Jones]

Just one word....Tonerite. Oops. sorry

[Looburst]

It's true that in some cases the player makes it sound better and in other cases the guitars DO open up a bit too.

[AllThumbsBruce]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

But don't take my word for it: make those phone calls yourselves. Ask them. Unless, of course, you don't WANT to know what the most experienced music professionals know to be true.

The highly respected dealer I know well thinks it's funny that folks bring their guitars back in saying how much the have opened up when they really sound the same as when they walked out the door. I don't think it is as one-sided as you portray.

[Looburst]

I will say this, it's pretty difficult to hear that a guitar has opened up unless you have some experience with said guitar. Also, I don't think an inexperienced or new to the guitar player can really tell when a guitar has opened up or not.

[Song]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

What I have seen time and time again in these "There's no scientific proof that guitars break in!" threads is a logic chain that works like this:

1. I, myself, cannot hear anything that I can attribute to a guitar breaking in.

2. Therefore, it doesn't exist.

3. Therefore, all you poor fools are deluding yourselves.

Wade Hampton Miller

I don't doubt that a guitar could sound better as glues cure and provide a better coupling between the parts.
A guitar changes over time (breaks in).
But when I read posts about guitars sounding better as they are playing (30-60 minutes or whatever),
that is our 99 deg body and hands warming the guitar and strings imo.
Just wanted you to know I respect your opinion.

[gitarro]

Someone needs to rustle up a rig that will hold the guitar in exactly the same way and same position and a servo-assisted robot arm tipped with a pick will strike the guitar strings with exactly the same force and a microphone placed in exactly the same place and at the same settings will record the sound created and a decibel meter will measure how loud it is and the sound wave will be compared to see if there are any changes to the tone. All this will be done in a humidity controlled and sound proofed room kept at the same temperature.

The problem howevee is that the strings would have oxidized more since the last time and this may add an external factor that will mess up the tests
.

[Twelvefret]

What does "opening up" mean these days? My experience caused me to define "opening up" as sounding like pre War Martins. That was the sound and playability I was and am interested in. I realize other players want a different sound.

[AndrewG]

Whether it's me getting accustomed to a guitar, or the guitar getting used to my domestic environment I couldn't say definitively, but after a few months a new guitar absolutely sounds different to me. In any case changes in relative humidity can drastically alter tone over just a few hours, so 'opening up' isn't a term I'm altogether happy with, given that a guitar can sound stellar on a Monday, and 'where did the wet cardboard tone come from?', on the Wednesday. Ok, I'm exaggerating, but that's my experience, more or less.

[mickthemiller]

Well, I've often seen videos of older - 20s and 30s - guitars in which the player is raving about the sound. Question is, has that guitar opened up due to age and being played or is it just that it's old and has a reputation, earned or not, that it is a great sounding guitar? I must say I am regularly underwhelmed when listening to such guitars. Having said that, I can't really tell a Stradivarius from another well made modern violin!!

[cotten]

Originally Posted by Shortfinger

...And why don't pianos, acoustic instruments with spruce soundboards, get discussed in "opening up" terms? Or cellos?...

I get to hang out with professional pianists and cellists sometimes. They may not use the same opening up lingo that guitarists use, but, believe me, they have their own terms that are roughly equal. I remember asking a World Class concert pianist what she thought of a brand new Bosendorfer Imperial 290, the one with 97 keys versus the usual 88. She smiled, and chose her words carefully. She praised its design, materials, and workmanship, then added that it was only a baby, that it would be even more exciting to play in 3-5 years.

Generally speaking, few professional cellists prefer new cellos. They like those whose tone has matured. They know exactly what they mean, even if non-musicians, especially engineers, do not.

Fine art is not easily measured by science.

cotten

[Pitar]

That a person can attest to a sound of a guitar at a singular point in time, and over a period have it so cataloged in his ear as to think credible his claim that there has indeed been a change, no way. Remarkable changes (notable ones) in sound are of a more sudden (and secular) nature that are related to atmospheric and string differences from one point to another in time. Proving the molecular structure of the species changes in a manner that produces changes in sound is going to have a long, winding and stilted journey.

[HHP]

I think the first time I heard the term "opening up" roughly coincided with the change from used guitars to vintage guitars and the establishment of shops who specialize in same. It was a catch-all phrase that preceded a more complete understanding of the construction differences between old and new guitars.

I've generally bought guitars that I thought had a unique sound or quality I wanted. The one I have had the longest is about 20 years old and it still has the unique qualities I was looking for when I bought it. Over the years, I have had lots of string types on it and each change had some effect on the sound. I also made big changes in the pick department over those years and moved from simple .96 celluloid to significantly modified 4mm casein, also a big difference in sound. But, still, the basic qualities of the guitar remain the same. Nothing I've done superseded what was originally built in, just refined or shaped it a bit.

The oldest instrument I own was built in 1919. Have no clue what it sounded like new. Bought it for its unique sound that I largely attribute to the fact that it is built very different from modern examples.

I think the determining factor in any instrument is how it was originally built. Next factor is how well I play it and finally how I configure it in terms of strings and picks. If some other factor is present that changes some of the response by a few kHz, it isn't that significant in comparison to everything else.