The scientific proof of opening up

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Sigh.....so because I have heard instruments open up and am not shy about saying so, I must be invested in this?

Okay, I don't expect you to parse everyone's posts and know everyone's musical instrument arsenals, but I'm not a vintage instrument collector. I'm talking about modern instruments, getting played and changing within a relatively short time frame of months or a year or two, not decades.

Wade Hampton Miller

Wade I do not doubt your experiences.... I was just quoting what the researcher found in the NYT article. But here's a thought, is it possible all your experiences with instruments opening up happened in a rather low-humidity environment and that the environment did play a big part in that process?

My take away from that article was that the research didn't suggest opening up to be a myth, but just something that the amount of moisture in the air can have a big impact on. Given the same make and model a person living on the cost in Florida may have an entirely different "opening up" experience than someone living in say Montana.

[dneal]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Sigh.....so because I have heard instruments open up and am not shy about saying so, I must be invested in this?

Okay, I don't expect you to parse everyone's posts and know everyone's musical instrument arsenals, but I'm not a vintage instrument collector. I'm talking about modern instruments, getting played and changing within a relatively short time frame of months or a year or two, not decades.

So what I suggest you do, Rmz and Mr. MacNeill, is follow the suggestion that I made to Gene in my first post in this thread: talk to the people who have handled many hundreds, possibly thousands of modern acoustic guitars, and ask THEM whether they believe guitars can or do break in. When you talk to some actual professionals, instead of volleying back and forth on a discussion thread, what you'll discover is that there is no doubt in their minds that instruments break in.

But don't take my word for it: make those phone calls yourselves. Ask them. Unless, of course, you don't WANT to know what the most experienced music professionals know to be true.

What I have seen time and time again in these "There's no scientific proof that guitars break in!" threads is a logic chain that works like this:

1. I, myself, cannot hear anything that I can attribute to a guitar breaking in.

2. Therefore, it doesn't exist.

3. Therefore, all you poor fools are deluding yourselves.


But it's generally pointless trying to change the minds of anyone who's bound and determined not to believe that acoustic guitars can and do break in. I suspect if any of you were to take my advice and actually call some of these builders and longtime retailers, you'd probably argue with THEM when they told you, yes, the tone of acoustic guitars does break in and mature with use.

But be bold - make those phone calls. Unless, of course, you're perfectly comfortable in your "There's no such thing as guitars breaking in!" Amen corner and don't want it called into doubt.


Wade Hampton Miller

C'mon Wade, that's like saying "Don't believe in UFO's and aliens!!??!!!! Well, talk to a hundred Raëlians about it and see if they don't tell you they exist!!!!"

[David MacNeill]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

My take away from that article was that the research didn't suggest opening up to be a myth, but just something that the amount of moisture in the air can have a big impact on.

I’m with you on the humidity angle playing the largest role in any perceived change over time. I also suspect that glues need weeks or months to fully cure and vibrate properly, but have no evidence to support my hunch.

[waveform]

You could just find the guitars resonant frequency (one of them) and play that through a speaker at the guitar, so it vibrates. Then leave it in that room for a month or so.

[The Bard Rocks]

There is absolutely nothing scientific about what my ears hear or don't hear. We are all different, and so are our guitars, which about makes it impossible for anything scientific to be done on this subject. What we like about what we hear is and always will be subjective.

For my part, I thought for years that I had never witnessed "opening up", but there were too many people whose opinions I respected for me to be a nay-sayer. Let's say I was happily agnostic, not trusting my hearing memory. I never saw much reason to trust it overly much and I still suspect it. However, my newest has been getting better and better. I am hearing sounds and overtones that I never heard before, good ones.

This of course pushes me towards the "yes, they do open up" camp. And it also pushes me to the "you can't trust your ears over time camp", since I have not witnessed this before. So the argument within me still teeters.

It may be more like religion - you either believe or you don't. And proofs or lack of proofs are not going to shake your faith.

[Jaden]

What’s really scary is when your best guitar by a wide margin started out tight, no warmth, anemic trebles, little bass response - adjectives used earlier by Wade Hampton to describe his friend’s mandolin - and easily passed up when new by prospective buyers for being a dud.

[Shortfinger]

My new Yamaha is sounding better, but I think it's me and not the instrument.

I keep it in a hard case with an Oasis when not playing it. Maybe I'll let it dry out just a little.

[David MacNeill]

Originally Posted by Jaden

What’s really scary is when your best guitar by a wide margin started out tight...easily passed up when new by prospective buyers for being a dud.

That is indeed scary. How many great ones were dismissed with a strum before the finish was even fully cured.

I will undermine my own authority: maybe I just never kept a guitar around long enough for The Great Opening Up to happen? I’m sure my wife would agree.

[justonwo]

I have never tried to explain the fundamentals because I don’t understand them, but I’ve played guitars that were brand new - as in finished the day before and I was the first person to play - and dramatic changes take place in the first 30 minutes. I’ve owned a number of brand new guitars and have experienced significant change in the first couple of months. Wood is a fairly inhomogenous material and its properties not only change over time but I can also imagine under tension. So, no, I don’t think it’s in your head. It’s not the world’s most satisfying answer (I’m an engineer, too), but the guitar is a complicated beast.

[Song]

Originally Posted by Shortfinger

This retired engineer wants to hear all about it.

The speed of sound within a material (velocity) is determined by the density of its mass and its elasticity. The velocity is a constant regardless of how much force is applied (amplitude) when various properties like temperature, barometric pressure, and (for some materials) humidity are held constant. These variables affect the velocity, especially temperature. Temperature dramatically affects the density/elasticity which changes the velocity which changes the sound. Innumerable scientific experiments have already been performed to verify this Law.
My theory is that when folks think they're hearing a better instrument, what they are really hearing is a nice warm guitar with the right strings and humidity level. Humidity affects the wood (more/less water/air) which changes the velocity which changes the sound.
As an ultrasonic specialist for over 35 years I've never seen any evidence to contradict Newton's and Hooke's Laws of motion physics.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by David MacNeill

That is indeed scary. How many great ones were dismissed with a strum before the finish was even fully cured.

I will undermine my own authority: maybe I just never kept a guitar around long enough for The Great Opening Up to happen? I’m sure my wife would agree.

Yes. It seems ageing plays a big role as moisture content in wood releases and sap and finish crystallizes. I think it is best understood by mechanical engineering rather than wave spectrum analysis.

[David MacNeill]

Originally Posted by Song

My theory is that when folks think they're hearing a better instrument, what they are really hearing is a nice warm guitar with the right strings and humidity level.

Song, ya had me at NASA.

I was hesitant to offer my hunches about temperature but your equations seem to be saying what I’m feeling: a cold guitar doesn’t want to vibrate as much as a warm guitar.

[Misifus]

Gene, this not “scientific” in that I didn’t perform any quantitative measurements, but, for me, the evidence stands as proof.

In 2003, I took delivery of a brand new from the luthier custom guitar. This guitar was a great pleasure and I was delighted with it, save for one curious characteristic - the sixth string was not as loud as its neighbor, the fifth A.

I asked a very knowledgeable player who was very familiar with the builder if I needed to be concerned about the lack of volume of the low E string. He said, “ No, don’t worry about it. Those Adirondack tops take time to come in.”

Well I didn’t worry, but I sort of kept track. After nearly a year, I realized one day that the sixth string was as loud or louder than the fifth. Now I didn’t measure it. But I distinctly observed that the sixth was weaker when the guitar was new, and that it was louder after 9 or 10 months. Because I was comparing the two side by side strings, I could clearly discern the change in the instrument.

[Russ C]

Apologies if I'm repeating someone .. but the contents and mass of timber changes with time and the shape of a guitar changes a little with tension and time - how could there not be sonic change?

[Orfeas]

Originally Posted by waveform

You could just find the guitars resonant frequency (one of them) and play that through a speaker at the guitar, so it vibrates. Then leave it in that room for a month or so.

How do you do that?