Newbie setup questions

[Sarhog]

Relatively new here, and new to guitars. About 3 months into YouTube lessons, and just finished my first month of in person lessons.
Anyhow, I have a Taylor GS Mini mahogany that I bought used from facebook marketplace. Really nice guitar I think. It has new custom light (11-52) strings. I have no string buzzing issues. When I’m trying to fret individual strings way up the neck (12th to 15th fret), the string height above the fretboard seems like its too high, and giving me some difficulty.



I measured the action? by measuring the distance from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the low E and high e string.
Then I measured the relief? by placing a capo on the first fret, and fretting the 14th fret and measuring the distance from the top of the 7th fret to the bottom of the low E string.

Numbers as follows: the 12th fret to the low E is .120” and the high e is .100”. The “relief” measurement is .009” (not much).

Finally, my questions…I’d like to lower the action. How do I do this? By lowering the saddle?

If you’ve read this far and have advice, thank you. If I have left out any data, let me know.
I did tighten the truss rod 2 quarter turns which lowered the action, but as I’m sure you’ve guessed, it reduced the relief to zero. I’ve since loosened it 2 quarter turns, returning all my numbers back to the way I got it (and the numbers I’ve listed above).

Thanks for listening, and thanks for any advice.

[Bowie]

Not to ignore your questions, but there are literally hundreds of videos that go over this in greater detail than we can here in type on the forum. I strongly recommend that as the visual instructions will be helpful.

Yes, sanding the saddle (from the bottom) will lower your action. Adjusting the truss rod will affect the action but you don't do that to change the action. You are adjusting it to create the proper amount of relief in the neck. Then, you can adjust the saddle to get the desired action.

When sanding the saddle, it's easy to make the bottom un-even so be sure to learn how to level it correctly. There are a number of techniques you can use.

[Sarhog]

Originally Posted by Bowie

Yes, sanding the saddle (from the bottom) will lower your action. Adjusting the truss rod will affect the action but you don't do that to change the action. You are adjusting it to create the proper amount of relief in the neck. Then, you can adjust the saddle to get the desired action.

This is precisely what I was looking for. I just wanted to confirm the definitions, or terminology (i.e. action, relief), and understand the order of operations. I’m not ready to start messing with the saddle without much research, just wanted to confirm that that was probably the next step?

So, to confirm, I would set the relief first, then deal with action height? The truss rod is for setting relief, and the saddle (and nut) are used to set action?

Thanks,

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by Sarhog

This is precisely what I was looking for. I just wanted to confirm the definitions, or terminology (i.e. action, relief), and understand the order of operations. I’m not ready to start messing with the saddle without much research, just wanted to confirm that that was probably the next step?

So, to confirm, I would set the relief first, then deal with action height? The truss rod is for setting relief, and the saddle (and nut) are used to set action?

Thanks,

Many set action at the nut but I feel that's a mistake. The nut is directly related to intonation between the open string and 1st fret. It should be treated like a fret and set purely for intonation, IMO. Setting it for playability is just compromising intonation and that's a personal no-no for me. A correct nut will also play well.

The nut is tricky. Most factory guitars have the nut slightly high because it's safer than having it end up slightly low. There are many DIY methods for cutting a nut and people will swear their $3 file works perfect for all the strings. I've found that it's easy to screw this up and either cause the nut to pinch the string, the slot to be too loose and cause the string to generate unpleasant overtones, or to mess up the break angle. I prefer using nut files that are just slightly above the gauge of string to be used for each slot.

Yes, you have the order correct. Though, wood being something organic that moves based on atmospheric conditions, string choice, tuning, and tension created/relieved by the other changes, you sometimes need to go back and forth. For instance, have you ever gone to tune and you found the first string went flat or sharp by the time you got to the last one? That's sometimes the tension in the top changing as the string tension changes, lifting or dropping the top. It's best to get your neck adjusted, then work the saddle a bit.

That might be more info that you wanted but I figure, if you're posting here, you might be an inquisitive person who wants to understand how it all works. Feel free to play with the saddle as you can always get a replacement (or an upgrade) for less than $20. You won't know, "how low is too low" until you get there. I keep a handful of blanks so that I can make a new saddle if I want to optimize for a different type of strings, different tuning, maybe I want to play with higher or lower action, etc.

[Sarhog]

Originally Posted by Bowie

Many set action at the nut but I feel that's a mistake. The nut is directly related to intonation between the open string and 1st fret. It should be treated like a fret and set purely for intonation, IMO. Setting it for playability is just compromising intonation and that's a personal no-no for me. A correct nut will also play well.

The nut is tricky. Most factory guitars have the nut slightly high because it's safer than having it end up slightly low. There are many DIY methods for cutting a nut and people will swear their $3 file works perfect for all the strings. I've found that it's easy to screw this up and either cause the nut to pinch the string, the slot to be too loose and cause the string to generate unpleasant overtones, or to mess up the break angle. I prefer using nut files that are just slightly above the gauge of string to be used for each slot.

Yes, you have the order correct. Though, wood being something organic that moves based on atmospheric conditions, string choice, tuning, and tension created/relieved by the other changes, you sometimes need to go back and forth. For instance, have you ever gone to tune and you found the first string went flat or sharp by the time you got to the last one? That's sometimes the tension in the top changing as the string tension changes, lifting or dropping the top. It's best to get your neck adjusted, then work the saddle a bit.

That might be more info that you wanted but I figure, if you're posting here, you might be an inquisitive person who wants to understand how it all works. Feel free to play with the saddle as you can always get a replacement (or an upgrade) for less than $20. You won't know, "how low is too low" until you get there. I keep a handful of blanks so that I can make a new saddle if I want to optimize for a different type of strings, different tuning, maybe I want to play with higher or lower action, etc.

Good stuff. Thanks.

[LHawes]

For what it's worth, and a factor that may or may not affect your set-up strategy, Taylor recommends medium gauge strings for the GS Mini.

https://www.taylorguitars.com/suppor...auge-reference

[Piercast]

Before you deal with the saddle, I suggest you first send those measurements to Taylor's customer service. I suspect they’ll send a new set of shims to correct the neck angle and keep the saddle as it was leaving the factory.

Do a Google search on how to adjust the Taylor Mini neck angle first.

[phavriluk]

Sarhog: First discard any comments about sanding saddles. Taylor adjusts action height by swapping precision-made shim sets used in neck attachment. If possible, I suggest taking the instrument to a Taylor-approved repair station and let them do it. Changing the neck angle ('reset the neck') is dead easy and quick on a Taylor, it takes about as much time and less effort than changing strings.

[fazool]

essentially four steps to a setup


1) remove ll relief making neck flat. Then check neck angle with straightedge - it should just line up with top edge of bridge. If not, swap neck shims. This is a trivial process on a taylor with a few bolts only and written procedures making it super easy

2) adjust nut height by sanding bottom flat and square until action above 1st fret is correct.

3) adjust saddle height by sanding bottom flat and square until action above 12th fret is correct.

4) adjust relief as you did.


Action an 12th should be about 5/64ths or so - some personal preferne and string gauge flexibility in there. Yours is too high. If the neck angle is good then you can sand the saddle. If the neck angle is off fix that first.

Relief should be about .007"


If you have the shims (available from Taylor) this can be completely done in about 20 minutes and its a great safe intro to guitar setup work.

Dont let it concern you or intimidate you - its totally tweakable and that guitar is designed for adjustment

[Sarhog]

Originally Posted by LHawes

For what it's worth, and a factor that may or may not affect your set-up strategy, Taylor recommends medium gauge strings for the GS Mini.

https://www.taylorguitars.com/suppor...auge-reference

I swapped the strings to custom lights to make it easier on my tender beginner fingertips.

Originally Posted by Piercast

Before you deal with the saddle, I suggest you first send those measurements to Taylor's customer service. I suspect they’ll send a new set of shims to correct the neck angle and keep the saddle as it was leaving the factory.

Do a Google search on how to adjust the Taylor Mini neck angle first.

Originally Posted by phavriluk

Sarhog: First discard any comments about sanding saddles. Taylor adjusts action height by swapping precision-made shim sets used in neck attachment. If possible, I suggest taking the instrument to a Taylor-approved repair station and let them do it. Changing the neck angle ('reset the neck') is dead easy and quick on a Taylor, it takes about as much time and less effort than changing strings.

Piercast, and phavriluk; thank each of you for your advice.

[Sarhog]

Originally Posted by fazool

essentially four steps to a setup


1) remove ll relief making neck flat. Then check neck angle with straightedge - it should just line up with top edge of bridge. If not, swap neck shims. This is a trivial process on a taylor with a few bolts only and written procedures making it super easy

2) adjust nut height by sanding bottom flat and square until action above 1st fret is correct.

3) adjust saddle height by sanding bottom flat and square until action above 12th fret is correct.

4) adjust relief as you did.


Action an 12th should be about 5/64ths or so - some personal preferne and string gauge flexibility in there. Yours is too high. If the neck angle is good then you can sand the saddle. If the neck angle is off fix that first.

Relief should be about .007"


If you have the shims (available from Taylor) this can be completely done in about 20 minutes and its a great safe intro to guitar setup work.

Dont let it concern you or intimidate you - its totally tweakable and that guitar is designed for adjustment

Thanks for the detailed response.

[phavriluk]

Originally Posted by LHawes

For what it's worth, and a factor that may or may not affect your set-up strategy, Taylor recommends medium gauge strings for the GS Mini.

https://www.taylorguitars.com/suppor...auge-reference

I suspect that was so that the instrument would sound 'larger' in the store. When I bought my GS Mini the first thing I did was swap the OEM strings to a 'custom light' set. I don't remember whether there was much of a difference, but I sure liked playing it better.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

I suspect that was so that the instrument would sound 'larger' in the store. When I bought my GS Mini the first thing I did was swap the OEM strings to a 'custom light' set. I don't remember whether there was much of a difference, but I sure liked playing it better.

Taylor recommends medium strings on the GS Mini because medium strings combined with the 23-1/2" scale length approximates the same string tension that light gauge strings exert on a 25-1/2" standard scale length.

This is done so the feel for the player is similar to what they would normally feel with the standard scale length and also to efficiently drive the top, presenting the same string energy to the bridge as a standard scale length would.

The numbers don't end up totally equal, but much closer than if the GS Mini were assembled and shipped with light gauge strings. That's Taylor's reasoning, but your experience (the same as mine with my GS Mini) is that the actual difference isn't all that noticeable. It might vary a bit from instrument to instrument.

[Howard Klepper]

The nut should be adjusted by bringing the slots down to the same height above the fretboard as the frets. This is done using a straightedge aligned to the fret tops (the most often used method (easy to find) uses the string as the straightedge).

There is no need to measure action at the 1st fret, and if the 1st fret action is set to some ideal standard while the saddle is high, it can end up too low when the saddle is lowered, causing buzzing on the open strings.

[Piercast]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

The nut should be adjusted by bringing the slots down to the same height above the fretboard as the frets. This is done using a straightedge aligned to the fret tops (the most often used method (easy to find) uses the string as the straightedge).

There is no need to measure action at the 1st fret, and if the 1st fret action is set to some ideal standard while the saddle is high, it can end up too low when the saddle is lowered, causing buzzing on the open strings.

I agree, and that's why I adjust the nut last of all. I know it's contrary to what some colleagues are doing, but it works better for me as I'n the habit of keeping action at the nut as low as I possibly can.